Dwarven Reinforcement with Tower Shield

[Seravix]

With dwarven reinforcement, it allows a player to increase the hardness of thick objects/structures. In the feat, it appears to be primarily focused on building parts such as windows, doors and walls.

Under material statistics it lists wooden shields as thin wood and steel shields as thin steel, so we (under most forums I read) can't apply it to those shields. But, what would you guys consider a tower shield is? Thick/normal or thin? The hardness and hit point are the same as normal wood, which is the same as a simple door.

The question is:
1) If you are the DM, would you allow a character to increase the hardness of a tower/fortress shield?
2) Do you feel that is in the spirit of the feat.

Rules:
Dwarven Reinforcement: https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1400
Material Statistics: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=730

Thank you ahead of time for your thoughts!

[Finoan]

Gold is a lower opportunity cost than a feat is. So I wouldn't require a feat for something that can be provided with gold - but if someone has the feat, I would let it work for its benefit for something that could instead be provided as effectively or better with gold.

Specifically in this case, anyone can buy shield runes for increasing the stats of a tower shield (shield runes are added in Gamemaster Core). Dwarven Reinforcement is not needed.

So if a player wants their character that happens to have Dwarven Reinforcement to enhance a tower shield, I would probably allow that as a houserule (I don't think the feat actually allows this because it requires either too much adjudication, or introduces power creep - shields that are more powerful than are normally possible). The details of the houserule being that you can only increase the tower shield up to the limits of a fully runed up version of the shield that the character could get for their level.

[Easl]

Finoan wrote:

The details of the houserule being that you can only increase the tower shield up to the limits of a fully runed up version of the shield that the character could get for their level.

I think that's very much in the spirit of the game. Many ways to achieve the same mechanical effect, allowing a wide variety of character concepts to be viable. It's also in the spirit of another common Pathfinder rule: "...but no stacking those different ways." :)

[Seravix]

I think that's a fair assessment.

[Cordell Kintner]

Finoan wrote:

Specifically in this case, anyone can buy shield runes for increasing the stats of a tower shield (shield runes are added in Gamemaster Core). Dwarven Reinforcement is not needed.

Shield Runes have a cap, and this feat allows one to exceed that cap.

Finoan wrote:

So if a player wants their character that happens to have Dwarven Reinforcement to enhance a tower shield, I would probably allow that as a houserule (I don't think the feat actually allows this because it requires either too much adjudication, or introduces power creep - shields that are more powerful than are normally possible). The details of the houserule being that you can only increase the tower shield up to the limits of a fully runed up version of the shield that the character could get for their level.

No house rule is necessary. The stats of a Tower Shield, which is made of wood, puts it solidly in the "normal" category of items, so reinforcing a tower shield is well withing rules as written.

A good example use case would be with the Limestone Shield, which costs 350g and has a hardness of 7, which meets the standard of a non-thin stone object. Adding a level appropriate lesser reinforcing rune to the shield would increase the hardness to 10. This is on par with a Sturdy Shield of the same level, but costs a total of 650g as opposed to a Sturdy Shield's 360g. It is vastly more expensive, but this would allow a player to exceed the guideline put in place that shield hardness should not exceed the hardness of a Sturdy Shield. You're not paying to use a feat, you're paying to bypass a guideline that the developers have put in place.

[Finoan]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

...puts it solidly in the "normal" category of items...

...which meets the standard of a non-thin stone object...

"normal" and "non-thin" isn't the requirement for Dwarven Reinforcement.

Dwarven Reinforcement can be used on "thick objects and structures".

I'm curious how you are describing a tower shield in such a way that it is both able to be carried in one hand, and is a thick object or structure.

And then once you get past the narrative description, try doing it using game mechanics.

[YuriP]

Fortress Shields are described as "thick and heavy". May they fit the Dwarven Reinforcement requirements.

[Finoan]

YuriP wrote:

Fortress Shields are described as "thick and heavy". May they fit the Dwarven Reinforcement requirements.

Ask your GM.

That is my stand on this. There isn't a cut and dry RAW argument to be had here.

Dwarven Reinforcement doesn't specify what it applies to in game mechanics terms because 'thick' is not really defined. The term 'thin' is only partially defined as the name of a type of Material Statistic where it lists things like 'cloth' and 'thin cloth' as well as 'glass' and 'thin glass'. Actual walls, a chest, a tree trunk, and an anvil are all listed as examples of objects without the 'thin' designation, but they still don't have any mention of being 'thick'.

[Bluemagetim]

I tried looking at this ancestry feet to get the feel. What is it trying to do.
It feels like this is not meant to give dwarves the ability to increase the hardness of shields. This is meant for structures. It does say thick objects but the entry is all about doors, windows, and other parts of a structure. So if the object is not the same scale of a structure I wouldn't think this ability applies to it.
Use on shields even tower shields feels like cheesing the rules.