Serpent's Skull started with an astoundingly good opener, Souls for Smuggler’s Shiv, but then the "spirit" seems to leave the AP.
Where did this AP go so wrong?
Why did this AP go so wrong?
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I played a little bit of Serpent's Skull. My wife and our elder daughter had played it from the beginning, the wife with her halfling sorcerer Wealday Addams and the daughter with her gnome barbarian Muffin. Then my daughter moved to another state during the 3rd module, City of Seven Spears and left her character sheet with my wife in case Muffin ever needed to return. A few months later my wife talked me into joining the game during the 4th module, Vaults of Madness, so I played Muffin. We finished that module, began The Thousand Fangs Below, but about one quarter of the way through we ourselves moved to another state.
The adventure path was missing something in Vaults of Madness. I got the impression it was repeating themes already covered in City of Seven Spears.
I asked my wife. She remembers being annoyed that after leaving the port city of Eleder to seek the lost city of Saventh-Yhi the party was accumulating wealth and could buy nothing with it because they were deep in the jungle. I do recall that our party visited the Pathfinder camp, our rivals in searching Saventh-Yhi, because they were the only people willing to sell us supplies. But she cannot point to when the adventure path lost its spirit. She had been too busy making her sorceress interesting despite the plot.
I can guess from the marks left by character development. Wealday Addams was insane, a halfling raised as a lab experiment that gave her abberant bloodline powers. Wealday escaped but never learned how to fit into society, so she stuck with her friends from the island. Muffin was a survivor. Her rage powers were selected not to pummel foes in battle but to survive in the jungle. I asked my daughter about this unusual wilderness-survival build, in order to play Muffin correctly. She said that Muffin constantly had to chose defensive and athletic rage powers in order to not die. The party lacked a cleric PC, so they hired a low-level cleric who could cast a few healing spells. No temple or magic shop was available for purchasing healing. Getting a good night's sleep was difficult because the serpentfolk frequently found the party's camp for night raids.
All this gives a sad impression of the PCs versus the module, surviving rather than thriving. Exploration and survival at 1st and 2nd level can be exciting. But at higher levels the party needs more victory than successful exploration and survival. They need to be tightening the campaign story threads into a cohesive yarn.
The adventure path was missing something in Vaults of Madness. I got the impression it was repeating themes already covered in City of Seven Spears.
What faction did your group ally with?
Do you feel that the "factions" were over or under played?I asked my wife. She remembers being annoyed that after leaving the port city of Eleder to seek the lost city of Saventh-Yhi the party was accumulating wealth and could buy nothing with it because they were deep in the jungle. I do recall that our party visited the Pathfinder camp, our rivals in searching Saventh-Yhi, because they were the only people willing to sell us supplies. But she cannot point to when the adventure path lost its spirit.
Should it have ended in Saventh-Yhi? (Could it have?)
Given that one of the themes of the AP is exploration of the unknown, could more options for shopping/sheltering been offered?
Muffin was a survivor. Her rage powers were selected not to pummel foes in battle but to survive in the jungle.
The player's guide & the first adventure both emphasize the importance of survival skills.
The adventure path was missing something in Vaults of Madness. I got the impression it was repeating themes already covered in City of Seven Spears.What faction did your group ally with?
Do you feel that the "factions" were over or under played?
My wife played Road to Ruin ten years ago. She says that she does not remember, but when I read the list from the blurb, "Pathfinder Society, Aspis Consortium, Shackles Pirates, or others," she said, "Most likely Pathfinder Society. We didn't like the Consortium or the Pirates."
I guess that is why our party could buy items from the Pathfinder Society camp. As far as we heard, the Pathfinders never cared about the vaults, so I guess they were just researching the surface city of Saventh-Yhi. I never got the impression that they were partners; otherwise, I would have asked why we didn't stay with them during the night.
What I remember from that module (it was before I joined) was my wife telling me that her character Wealday Addams wanted to solve her problems by burning down the waterfront buildings. The ranger in the party told her that fire was bad, so Wealday switched to acid spells for the rest of the game.
I asked my wife. She remembers being annoyed that after leaving the port city of Eleder to seek the lost city of Saventh-Yhi the party was accumulating wealth and could buy nothing with it because they were deep in the jungle. I do recall that our party visited the Pathfinder camp, our rivals in searching Saventh-Yhi, because they were the only people willing to sell us supplies. But she cannot point to when the adventure path lost its spirit.Should it have ended in Saventh-Yhi? (Could it have?)
Given that one of the themes of the AP is exploration of the unknown, could more options for shopping/sheltering been offered?
If exploring the Vaults of Madness had felt like real archeological research, the module would have had more flavor. Instead, it felt like a race to find the access to the hidden city before the serpentfolk killed us.
A new player joined the game soon before we left. His wizard had Teleport, so the party could have teleported to a city for shopping. My wife and I moved away before the party tried that.
I ran the Ironfang Invasion adventure path myself from 2019 to 2023. It had no shopping available for the first two modules. The player characters managed just fine with looting enemies and opening treasure vaults, but I often changed the contents of the vaults to items that fit the characters, such as enchanted weapons that the two rogues could use.
Muffin was a survivor. Her rage powers were selected not to pummel foes in battle but to survive in the jungle.The player's guide & the first adventure both emphasize the importance of survival skills.
I liked the wilderness-survival build on Muffin. My elder daughter likes to experiment with unique builds, so until I talked with her I assumed it was deliberate.
Muffin had the Mobility feat, so she would circle behind large enemies with reach to provoke their attack of opportunity. That used up their attack of opportunity so the rogue could safely close in opposite Muffin for the flank. Muffin had a polearm, so she did not need to provoke. She did it for her teammate.
When Muffin leveled up, I could have chosen Greater Beast Totem for pounce (Muffin already had Beast Totem for +4 natural armor). But I stuck with the survival theme and selected Night Vision for darkvision 60 feet while raging. The next game session, the party fought a creature that made darkness, so Muffin had made the right choice.
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I texted with my daughter and she had the following comment about Serpent's Skull, "I don't recall enough details of that module for a proper opinion, but I do remember each section transition feeling disjointed. After a bit I didn't really care about where the enemies I was fighting were."
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I'm pretty sure we've been over this before, but to my mind there were three main issues.
1. The lack of continuity between modules.
The resurgence of the serpentfolk should have been hinted at far more strongly in the beginning and the Vaults of Madness felt very tacked-on compared to the rest of the city.
Lack of Continuity was a problem with many APs, but it is especially a problem with some of the earlier paths.
I can see why I CR4 creature isn't more common in Souls for Smuggler's Shiv - but Racing to Ruin doesn't have this excuse.
2. Saventh-yhi was too small. and the 'conquering' mechanic, like so many of the sub-mechanics introduced in APs, felt forced and boring.
For what was supposed to be a major metropolis, SY was pretty small and very sparesly detailed. I would have preferred if the bookspace given to the Vaults and most of Ilmurea were given to fleshing out SY instead. I threw out the conquer aspect and threw in a lot of lost city stuff I stole from other sources, e.g. Myth Drannor and Maure Castle.
Ah! The page count monster! But, it's actually better then the inspiration.
Such a wasted opportunity. The conquering mechanic would have worked better with more diplomacy options. The AP's romance option - Athyra - as part of the Tribe of the Sacred Serpent would have been more interesting and useful for the GM.3. The competing factions on the race to SY and conquering the city were not interesting and merely complicated matters in an uninteresting way. I'm sure there are GMs that could make this bit work but it didn't for me.
Yes, a LOT of space was wasted on this too.
The GM only needed two factions - the PCs faction and the "Anti" faction. One idea, would have been to start the PCs as Pathfinders.I'll probably get some flack for this but the colonialism issues didn't bother me (or my players, that I could tell), though the different PCs had varying opinions on the matter.
I doubt you'd suffer too much. Even Paizo's own writers didn't perceive the problem either.
I outlined this AP to run someday its in my top 5 with my fixes.
Whats wrong (for me)....
1) Too many factions..
2) Finding a lost city like Saventh-Yi to go find another lost city (Ilmurea) seems meh.
3) The insanity stuff in book 4 and only 3 of the dungeons in this book were worth using imho.
4) Urdefhan in general are not my taste.
My Fixes (not in a order) ...
1) Replaced all Urdefhan with Drow.
2) Keep the Red Mantis as a Rival faction, go Pathfinder society and skip the res.
3) Replaced book 3 and 4 with book 3 of the Ruins of Azlant and book 4 of Skull and Shackles (minus the feast), effectively moving the AP out to sea from the jungle and using any nearby archipelago. They can find the location of the archipelago in book 3 at the temple of the snake or Azlanti Ziggurat. I placed Ilmurea under the island of empty eyes but a gate to it works as well.
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Full disclosure: this was the first AP I ran. I poured my soul into it to make it great and it's my favorite AP for that reason. I also had a fantastic table of players that were very involved and invested.
Now, to answer your question: Where did it go wrong?
Short answer: lots of places. Nearly everywhere.
Book 1: ... except here. This one is nearly a perfect adventure and is still at the top of many peoples' "best start to an AP" list. I've ran it as a standalone and it's great.
Book 2: Needs to be a race to the ruins and fails to feel like a race in almost any way. As written, this is a series of static wilderness encounters.
Book 3: Needs to be an exploration of a lost city and is woefully underdeveloped all around.
Book 4: Is a series of mini dungeons in a woefully underdeveloped lost city.
Book 5: Features a shift to an enemy that comes out of almost nowhere and was not telegraphed to the players very well.
Book 6: An AP advertised as finding and exploring a lost city ends with... two big dungeons. It's... fine.
Just my opinion of course. Cheers!
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I poured my soul into it to make it great and it's my favorite AP for that reason. I also had a fantastic table of players that were very involved and invested.
This is the key to converting a flawed adventure path into a great campaign.
And one part of pouring one's heart, mind, and soul into a campaign is asking for advice, as I assume Lord Fyre is doing here.
On a side note, I am preparing to run a Strength of Thousands campaign starting next month, so I am studying Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse, including the parts about Anthusis (once called Eleder) and Sarenth-Yhi. It makes me think of what might have been in Serpent's Skull.
I poured my soul into it to make it great and it's my favorite AP for that reason. I also had a fantastic table of players that were very involved and invested.This is the key to converting a flawed adventure path into a great campaign.
And one part of pouring one's heart, mind, and soul into a campaign is asking for advice, as I assume Lord Fyre is doing here.
That was my intention .
But, I'm now looking elsewhere. Despite liking the themes, setting, and meta-story this AP seems just too broken. None-the-less, this discussion was still valuable for evaluating problems in other paths .
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But, I'm now looking elsewhere. Despite liking the themes, setting, and meta-story this AP seems just too broken. None-the-less, this discussion was still valuable for evaluating problems in other paths .
I would disagree slightly. I love the theme as well. With some effort, this is now one of my top 5. Even if I leave the middle two books in, I'm pretty sure my table would love it with some minor modifications. Ditch any conquest points btw.
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I've posted the various fixes I've used in other places, but I'll drop them here again if anyone is interested. This is just what I did/my recommendations. Check 'em out if interested.
Obviously SPOILERS a plenty below and sorry for the length...
My recommendations:
Book 1
0. Before the adventure, while doing character introductions or something, ask the PCs which animal best describes them. This lets you set up the Dream Quest in Book 2 a little earlier.
1. As others have said, use the diseases carefully. Consider having a timeline built out ahead of time and rolling for which player catches a disease when. This saves you from rolling the 5-15% chance for EVERY player at the table. You know that on Day 6, Nimblefingers has to save against Filth Fever (or whatever).
2. Make the other castaways likeable. Even if they like to hate them, they’re going to be almost the only NPC interaction for the whole first book. Plus if the PCs like the other castaways, it makes pulling them into Book 2 much, much easier.
3. A number of people have pointed out the value of keeping Yarzoth alive as the BBEG of the path. If she’s killed, try to ensure that her body is in some state to be Raised/Resurrected by Agents of the Coil so she can show up later. (I can do a full write up on how I did this if you're interested)
Book 2
4. The PCs will really need to like and link up with one of the expeditions/factions. If they don't, be ready to create a faction they WILL like and link up with someone else. (Example: Say you have a follower of Sarenrae. He goes to the church and asks if they can fund an expedition. Response: "Well we don't really have the funds or logistics to do that. But we do have several followers that are friendly with the Pathfinders. We'll send a small delegation with the Pathfinder expedition.")
5. Consider having Nkechi (and later Athyra) travel with the main expedition and NOT with the PCs as trailblazers. If you have a capable table already (or a large one) having additional NPCs travel with the party really isn’t a requirement and can slow things down/take attention away from the PCs. Have the native porters' spiritual leader was killed in the warehouse fire. The faction leader said they wouldn't be able to set out because the natives thought their expedition was cursed. So the PCs needed to have Nkechi come along to serve as a spiritual leader for all the porters. Worked much better, kept him in the background once the race began (he traveled with the main caravan) and he wasn't slowing down my already large table. Also makes Nkechi kind of the spokesman for the native manual laborers working for the faction expedition. Gave the PCs a "go to" man if they needed some manpower help with something (repairing a bridge to the central island, clearing an area to move the camp, etc) Same with Athyra once she joined. She gave the PCs some pointers on what was ahead in the M'Neri plains then she and Jagi dropped back to guide the main expedition.
6. For the spirit quest, have cards done out beforehand for the PCs in their animal totem form. Moves, attack forms, etc. Consider adding a “mini-quest” that the PCs can do in their animal forms if they appear to like this. Ruins on the Dream Plane that they have to get through before reaching the Dream Serpent.
7. ROLL RANDOM ENCOUNTERS OUT FOR THE JOURNEY BEFOREHAND. I can’t stress this enough and others have said it. That timeline you started on the island to track diseases? Keep using it to track the party's journey and encounters. (I just printed out one of the several available Calendars of Golarion and wrote notes on the days. Worked fine.)
8. Consider having the PC’s expedition start in the middle of the pack. Track where the other expeditions are and have them run into other trailblazers/expeditions as they catch up or fall behind. Make it feel more like a race.
9. Building off 8 above, consider adding in other encounters where the PCs can make up time or slow down the other expeditions to reach Tazion first. I did this and my PCs LOVED it. Said it was the high point of Book 2 and really kept the pressure on and made it feel like a race. (Some examples my PCs used: Sending herds of triceratops stampeding at them. The witch could speak with animals so he had a pride of lions harassing pack animals on the M'Neri plains. They hired thugs of their own in Kalabuto to harass the other groups. Adding in more encounters with locals like Zenj tribesmen or even Bas'O nomads that could show their expedition shortcuts, Setting some creative traps. etc.) (I have a full write up of the encounters I used if you're interested)
10. Starting in Book 2 and all through Book 3, remember the environment of the jungle. Want to explore into the afternoon/evening or early morning? Chances are the jungle is shrouded in a thick mist from the nearly daily rain. This is going to hurt their ranged characters (who can't see far) and greatly increase the likelihood they'll wander into an ambush. Even charging becomes a pain if you can't see what's lurking ahead of you in the thick, jungle mist. Make sure to enforce max encounter distances. Very few places are going to allow them to rain death at the enemy from a distance through the thick trees. Base encounter distance to even get a PER check in dense woods is 2d6x10 feet, if I remember correctly. Remember the increased PER penalties when in the jungle. There's a much better chance of (again) stumbling into an ambush if they can't hear the enemy waiting for them over the noises of all the jungle birds and screeching monkeys. Finally remember to apply the modifiers for the frequent rain. It makes PER checks even more difficult (additional -4 I think) and affects ranged firing like severe winds: additional -4 to hit.
These are going to be especially important through the valley of Saventh-Yhi in Book 3 as well.
11. If you’re using Yarzoth as the BBEG, have Isillar’s notes mention how she came through Tazion on her way to Saventh-Yhi (and possibly how she was raised by the Coil). This lets the PCs be engaged in a race for Saventh-Yhi and a chase for their old nemesis (and also keeps the danger/mystery of the serpentfolk in the adventure)
Book 3
12. Consider adjusting the discovery point system. Instead of requiring 120 points to claim the city, consider 15 pts in each district. This will force the party to scout around and move their camp. (I have a summary of the exploration changes as well.)
13. Have the different mysteries that can be found printed out beforehand on slips of paper to give out. Either pick which mysteries to give out or have a chart to roll on. (I have these done up if you're interested at all)
14. Make some minor changes to make sure the PCs know they're the first ones to find the lost city. A) Move the ghost at area C to outside the valley. Have his diary ranting about how he knows how close he is to the lost city. B) Change the bodies found in Vaults D and F to serpentfolk bodies or locals tribesmen (trogs, boggards, etc). C) Stress that Juliver and Cline came into Ilmurea through the Darklands. They did NOT find Saventh-Yhi. You don't want the PCs to feel even kinda cheated out of being the first ones to the lost city.
15. STRONGLY consider allying other factions with residents of the districts. This will make the race to claim the city a bit more tied into the city itself. Make the city feel DYNAMIC. You have 5 factions and 6 dominant tribes. Really think about who's allying with who, who exploring where and who's attacking who. (Example: If the Pathfinders set up camp next to the Military district, is Olujimi just going to watch them? Is he going to send envoys up there to demand his tribute for an alliance? Is he going to send a chaou-ki warband up there to try and drive them out? Is the Consortium going to approach the charou-ki and try to buy them off and get them to attack the Pathfinders while maybe supplying them masterwork weapons?) Have the other factions moving camps. Have the other city districts launching attacks at the other camps. Let the PCs know that the city is alive. Allow them to ally and interact with the other factions and tribal districts. Each day you have a lot of choices. Think of it more as various powers striving for control of the city instead of just a hackfest. Don't let them fall into the mindset of "we have to kill everything in the city." That will get boring super fast.
Bottom line: avoid City of Seven Spears feeling static. Be dynamic. Really flex your creative muscles and think about what each side is going to do and give the PCs a rundown on what they've seen happening around the rest of the city each day. Then let them decide where they want to focus their efforts on. Really have fun with it!
16. The timeline? Yup, keep running with it. Use it to track daily encounters for the camps (so you know what camps have to make defense rolls when) and to track discovery points for the various camps. This saves SO much time at the table. Also lets you know what camp is exploring what district so the PCs have a chance to run into/stop them if they want.
17. Consider having them find signs of Yarzoth’s interaction with the natives of the city. Being praised as an arriving savior by the degenerate serpentfolk, spotted sneaking towards the First Vault by the Tribe of the Radiant Serpent, etc. The serpentfolk are supposed to be THE bad guys of this AP and its important that you keep throwing little tidbits that they’re up to something big… even if the PCs don’t know WHAT yet.
Book 4
18. Be ready to run this book during the end of Book 3. If the PCs stumble on a Vault during their exploration of the city, let them find it! Just maybe give them a heads up that they MIGHT not be tough enough to explore it yet. This makes finding the mural/locations of the vaults more interesting if they’ve stumbled on one or two already.
19. Don’t be afraid to start this book while the camps are still racing to finish their discovery points and claim the city. Makes it more interesting if the PCs are exploring the vaults and their camps still have something to do (mapping out and cataloging the ruins).
20. Strongly encourage your PCs to build up Prestige Awards with factions here. There’re a lot of insanity checks and having Restorations available from a faction for 2 CPA was a HUGE help for my PCs.
21. Consider having the Gorilla King show up as an additional faction at the end of Book 3/beginning of Book 4. He sets up a huge (three times the size) camp and begins trying to beat the PCs at their own game by racing through the city collecting discovery points. Make him into a real menace that the PCs fear, watching over the ruined city. Only when the PCs are on the verge of claiming the city will he agree to meet with them and launch into the King events. The Gorilla King is one of *the* premiere characters in the Mwangi and should be played up as such. His approach, arrival and (possibly) encampment should be played up to instill sheer terror.
22. Playing off 21 above, consider not letting the PCs fight the Gorilla King. Someone else brought up the GREAT idea (that I used and it went beautiful) that the King sends his eldest son to fight the PCs to the death at the feast. His son has aspirations for the throne and the King uses this as an excuse to get him out of the way. This lets you play up the King as conniving and smart and lets you keep him “above the fray” and maintain him as a semi-legendary figure in the Mwangi.
Book 5
23. I had the ranger/guide make a survival roll to point out that if they could clear out the morlock/old Azlanti garrison portion of Ilmurea, it would make a suitable base camp. This would free up spell slots so they didn't have to teleport back and forth to the surface. This led them to clearing out the cloaker gate and the elementals.
24. While talking to Udarra, I made sure to mention that the urdefhan were very violent and most likely only willing to talk to someone in a position of strength. This led to the PCs assaulting the aerie and probably several other strongholds before walking in and saying "We're the ones who are kicking your butt. Take us to your leader."
25. My players have been big on Prestige Awards and moving up in their factions. The PA suggestions from the adventure didn't really reflect the goals of all the factions, so I modified them some to push for more exploration through Ilmurea. (EXAMPLE: After reporting on the broken stairs in the cloaker gate, the Pathfinders wanted to find an intact gate down to Orv. This will be worth extra PA and will (hopefully) divert them a bit between the urdefhan and Thousand Fangs.)
26. For Thousand Fangs, consider making a quick "cheat sheet" for the fortress with room numbers, occupants present (normal), and occupants present (alerted). It took a long time to flip through the book checking each of the nearby rooms to see who was where when the snake-men sent out a telepathic alarm. I think a table will be much easier. Just my finding.
27. Once PCs finally enter the Thousand Fangs fortress, remember the 100 ft range telepathy of the serpentfolk. If the PCs hit one chamber, they might be "chain pulling" a few rooms depending on how close they are.
28. As written, the fortress has an infinite number of guards. Whether on alert or not -by the book- there's a 30% chance of any barracks containing 2d4 serpentfolk. Consider that once the fortress is on alert, reduce the barracks serpentfolk to 1d4 and instead add a couple other guardposts through the main coil/corridor. Replacement guards at the tail watching the gate, guards manning the murderholes above the main gate and guards watching the broken section. I also put the other guardposts on "alert." They keep the doors open and have pairs of sentries watching the closest main approaches. But due to the "infinite" number of potential guards, I've also decided that when (if?) the PCs kill Sskhavo, the fortress commander, the remaining serpentfolk will essentially abandon Thousand Fangs and fall back to the Sanctum of Ydersius (area R in Ilmurea). This is where they make their stand in Book 6.
Book 6
29. The only major change I made was with the disconnected feel of the Hunter's Maze. It just didn't seem to fit so I decided that, while fleeing from serpentfolk forces, Valgaunt and his urdefhan troops had found a portal called the Eye of Savith. This was a portal that morlock legend said allowed Savith to watch over her ancient enemies the snake-men in Thousand Fangs. In reality it was a route into the upper levels of Savith's Crypt in Saventh-Yhi, a sight where Azlanti warriors would come to pay their respects to the legendary warrior and also served as a training ground for them. The urdefhan were trapped here and it allowed me to reflavor the Hunter's Maze as a winding Azlanti crpyt/training area but keep the encounters as is. Just how I did it.
30. Oh I did also include Yarzoth in the final fight for some closure. I bumped her up to a CR14 cleric 8/mythic tier 4 and had her be the focus of the ritual to raise Ydersius.
This is a summary/adjustments that I had written up for the Exploration rules:
Exploration: I made a few changes (based on other excellent comments from the boards here) but mostly just wrote down a simpler "flowchart" that I could follow:
- Each District has 15 Discovery Points that can be found. This largely represents surveying and mapping out the lost city of Saventh-Yhi.
- As the PCs are moving through the district "securing it" (eg. taking out the strong points under "victory conditions") the rest of the faction researchers are mapping out the edges of the district. This is the daily Exploration roll. (It's been my experience this usually takes them up to 8 to 10 Discovery points until a district is secure)
- Once area secure, xp awarded to PCs, camp gets its +1 to each stat bonus.
- Once secure, it's now safe enough for the researchers to move in and (instead of a discovery roll) get to automatically get a mystery for the day. Each mystery is also worth 1 Discovery point (and xp!) so this should be the goal of the party as well (unless they want to try for the roll and the chance of getting multiple Discovery points instead of mysteries. But that's their choice).
- Once the researchers move in, the party can spend the day assisting them (making the knowledge roll for an additional mystery). OR the party can move on to securing the next district (start hitting the next set of strong points).
- Depending how you're handling mysteries, consider setting a max of 8 to 10 in a district. I have them on slips of paper and hand them out and think I had about 40 (combined some and added some more foreshadowing for books 4-6)
- Allying with a district: if the PCs move in and ally with a district, it's now secure. Woot! Camp bonuses and xp awarded! Can immediately start searching for mysteries (since again, each mystery is worth a discovery point as well). Allying with a district is the fastest way to explore it since you are assured of one a day (as a mystery) from the researchers and (if you have a knowledge guy in the group) a second mystery from the PCs efforts
Here’s some of what I used/added in Book 2 to make the race feel like a race:
What I personally did was take the arrival times and back them all up the 54 days of travel time to get their assumed start times. Then assumed the PCs started a couple days ahead of them. Then backed things up a week (because that's how long it takes to get the expedition together). This gives you a good timeline.
Then -because I wanted it to be more of a race- I delayed the PCs start time by 1 day for every square destroyed in the warehouse fire. They ended up losing 5 days and starting in the middle of the pack.
Now this would have made it IMPOSSIBLE as written to arrive first (and that's just cheap and unfair) so I added in a few more opportunities to make up time.
- At Fzumi Salt Mines (area C) they can shave off a day as written in the book
- At the roadside camp at (area D) I had another set of thugs try to sneak in and poison the party’s horses at night. They found out that they’d been hired by the Aspis scouts that had come thru before. They hired the thugs themselves to poison the scouts behind them and get an extra day lead.
- In Kalabuto (area I), the party hired agents of their own to sabotage the caravans behind them to extend their lead by another day.
- At the Lake of Vanishing Armies (area L) the local fishermen were being harassed by the Spawn in the lake. If the PCs took out the Spawn in the lake, the natives would take the expedition up river by barge to the edge of Mzali territory thus cutting off another day.
- At the tomb (area P) I had some local natives show up soon after the battle. My PCs were careful to reconsecrate the grave site and turned over Amghawe's spear to the natives. As thanks, they showed the PC's expedition a shortcut through the jungle cutting off several bends in the river they were following and shorting the trip an additional day.
- In the jungle, I had another encounter with (I believe) Bas’O nomads. This was a purely roleplaying encounter and the locals showed them another shortcut if made friendly.
- Along the way they had several random encounters with animals. They used Speak with Animal to make them friendly and sent them ahead to attack the expeditions ahead of them. I slowed the other expeditions down a day per significant attack.
- After taking out the Mzali raiders (area M) they made an agreement with one of the survivors to have his people attack the other expeditions coming through slowing them down.
- At one point they also caught up with Ishirou and the Consortium trailblazers. They took him out in an ambush and I had that slow the Consortium down a day as they had to send more trailblazers ahead.
After all that, they ended up arriving on the same day as the Red Mantis trailblazers. I gave them credit for arriving first (since it was really a tie) and made the prisoners at V4 the Red Mantis scouts.
Overall my players said it really felt like a race with the pressure being on and they played smart to make up time whenever they could.
And here's kind of a run-down of how things started with my group to give some ways of being really dynamic in Book 3. Obviously, this is just how it went with my group:
- Group arrives guiding the Government faction. Have become more and more dissatisfied with the racism of General Havelar (they all play native Mwangi).
- During the night, a patrol of Sargavan soldiers is killed by the charou-ki in the nearby Military district. General Havelar vows revenge and launches a genocidal campaign to wipe them out!
- Last straw for the PCs. They leave to join another faction. My pirate PC and Pathfinder PC argue over which faction to join. With several good diplomacy rolls and great role playing, they get Kassata and Amivour to join forces forming a joint Pirate/Pathfinder camp.
- PCs set out to secure the Merchant district. Have several run-ins with Ishirou who is also exploring the district for the Consortium. Hostilities avoided… for now.
- The Government starts waging war against the charou-ki slowly forcing their way into the Military district
- Red Mantis remains unseen (they’re quietly scouting out the Artisan and Farming districts to the south)
- PCs finish securing and exploring the Merchant district and decide to set their porters to repairing the bridges to the central islands (Government district)
- One PC (secretly working for the Consortium) tells the Aspis that the Merchant district is secure. The Consortium moves camp into the secured ruins and begin exploring quickly trying to catch up to the PCs
- PCs reach the central island and run afoul of the rakshasa (from previous post: he’s sulking because Yarzoth turns all of his followers against him). PCs get curb stomped and run away, vowing to take care of him later.
- Consortium finishes Merchant district and moves around to the south. Run into the boggards and arrange an alliance with them. Consortium moves camp into Farming district
-PCs continue securing Government district inflicting horrendous losses on the serpentfolk. Finally district secure (with almost half of the snake-men dead)
-Government forces occupy Military district pushing charou-ki back to their two strong points (Spear plaza and plateau fortress). They finish off their discovery points here.
-PCs finish exploring Government district. Rakshasa makes several appearances at PCs camp attempting to charm members of their party and faction but is driven off each time (good saves and good preparations by my PCs). Remaining serpentfolk hide in several outlying buildings and flee in fear from the PCs having been thoroughly beaten down.
-PCs hear about Yarzoth from serpentfolk survivors and set out around to the south side for this “human land” the serpentfolk hated. Met the Tribe of the Sacred Serpent and allied with them (securing the Artisan district and moving their base camp down there)
-Red Mantis moves camp further south and runs afoul of the aboleth. Several assassins dominated as the aboleth tries to figure out what to do about these newcomers.
- Now that the PCs have left, rakshasa sees an opening. Regains the trust of the serpentfolk (“See? Your serpent god is weak! He did nothing to protect you from the humans!”)
-Government slowly starts exploring the Residential district, keeping an eye on the charou-ki to their rear.
- PC Aspis agent tells the Consortium that the central islands are secure. Aspis camp starts making rafts on the shore of the Farming district to explore the central islands. Much hilarity ensues as the PCs repeated sabotage them (including “kiting” the mokele-mbembe and sending it rampaging through the Aspis camp)
-PCs finally discover the Mantis camp. Chivane assures them she’s just looking for the temple. They share information (but secretly hope to find it first to use as leverage against the Mantis and to free Sasha who’s essentially being held as a hostage)
-Aboleth sees an opening and sends his dominated Mantis assassins against the PCs camp trying to break up this new semi-alliance.
-On the far side of the lake, the rakshasa kills General Havelar and impersonates him. Moves the Government camp onto the central island in a “surprise” alliance with the serpentfolk. Jask and Nkechi (who were left behind to keep an eye on things at the Government camp) are captured for causing “trouble” and disappear to become play things back in the rakshasa’s den (and to hopefully be rescued by the PCs later)
-PCs set out into the Temple district to look for the Mantis God temple as their camp races to finish up discovery points in the Artisan district
-Aspis camp reaches the Government district and arranges for a no-hostility agreement with the rakshasa.
-The rakshasa eyes the PCs camp among the Tribe of the Sacred Serpent and plots to send a serpentfolk and Government force to wipe out their camp.
For my part, we enjoyed book one just fine, but Book Two felt troubled right out the gate. You know you're in for a weird time when your first big encounter is fighting a bunch of "radical abolitionists". The constant weird colonialist vibes were a problem; I remember a time we took a bunch of Bekyar warriors captive after they attacked us, and we, a bunch of Avistani invaders, got super uncomfortable and decided to drag them all the way to a local town to face justice. Because, like, who were we to go around executing people whose crime was Not Wanting Us On Their Land? And for that matter, why weren't we allowed to join with a faction of people who actually had a right to the land being explored? All the factions seemed to be groups that had no place in the Mwangi Expanse.
There were lots of great character beats, because we were roleplaying the whole time, and there were plenty of interesting villains and stuff, but none of it felt connected. We felt very distanced from the actual goals of the adventure, and while Book One was good, it hadn't really done anything to make us more interested in finding an ancient city or make us feel like we needed to.
No joke, I feel like an enormous portion of this AP would have been fixed if you'd just been hired by the Magaambya.
I'm not just saying that because of the colonialist vibes, either. I think it would make the history we were learning and monsters we were encountering feel like more than a bunch of mild curiosities if we had been hired by people who actually had a history tied to the region.
It might have allowed the threats plaguing the region to feel more pertinent, too, since our overall goal goes from "conquer this land's secrets" to "help out the locals and share what we learn". We care more about the shadow demon when our direct allies can tell us some of its history and then say, "wow, thanks for dealing with that shadow demon, now it won't be eating our children anymore".
I never played the later adventures, so I can't really speak to anything past that. I just feel like that's the change I would make to tether things.
For my part, we enjoyed book one just fine, but Book Two felt troubled right out the gate. You know you're in for a weird time when your first big encounter is fighting a bunch of "radical abolitionists". The constant weird colonialist vibes were a problem; I remember a time we took a bunch of Bekyar warriors captive after they attacked us, and we, a bunch of Avistani invaders, got super uncomfortable and decided to drag them all the way to a local town to face justice. Because, like, who were we to go around executing people whose crime was Not Wanting Us On Their Land? And for that matter, why weren't we allowed to join with a faction of people who actually had a right to the land being explored? All the factions seemed to be groups that had no place in the Mwangi Expanse.
While I didn't have this problem at the time, I realized - sadly when someone pointed it out - the problem later.
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My GM tried to add a "Freemen's Brotherhood" faction, which was cool. Unfortunately, none of our characters really understood any of the adventure goals beyond "hey this ruin sounds neat maybe there's cool stuff there", so our motivations were mostly built to be mercenary instead of idealistic. We also didn't have any friends in that faction. We went with the Pathfinders in the end. Still, it was a good idea.
My GM tried to add a "Freemen's Brotherhood" faction, which was cool. Unfortunately, none of our characters really understood any of the adventure goals beyond "hey this ruin sounds neat maybe there's cool stuff there", so our motivations were mostly built to be mercenary instead of idealistic. We also didn't have any friends in that faction. We went with the Pathfinders in the end. Still, it was a good idea.
The whole "Faction" thing didn't work as well in practice as I think Paizo's designers hoped.
Of course, this AP might have benefited by stopping at the end of City of Seven Spears. The Pathfinder plot, that begins with the rescue of Juliver, presumes a level of heroism on the part of the players that may not exist (for example allies of the Aspis Consortium, Red Mantis, or Sargavan government).
I think the AP would have worked a lot better if the first encounter of Book 2 had been a "villain faction" putting the PCs in enough jeopardy to see an allied faction as, like, meaningfully in the same boat. You know, even if it's just "hey, those Aspis guys just beat the crap out of us, they're pushing you Pathfinders around, too, we'll help you out".
The "extremist antislavery" activists kidnapping one of the PCs' friends felt like such a bizarre way to open the real AP.
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I haven't played SS, so I don't think my thoughts hold much weight, but I've wanted to run this AP for years.
By the reading, I liked the whole AP (minor nitpicks aside, which I think is normal for published adventures) except for Book 2. Ultimately it just failed to deliver on the promise of the title. I didn't see where it was an actual race. Like, where is the risk of another faction getting ahead of you? Where is the opportunity to eff with a faction getting too close behind? Were there any real gambles you could take to cut time off your journey at greater risk?
On a personal desire, I wanted to see something that made it feel like more of an expedition than a regular D&D excursion. Maybe somehow adapt Jade Regent's caravan rules to account for leading a train of porters.
So, on paper at least, I thought everything about Smuggler's Shiv and the actual exploration sounded great. It's just the "race" that left me wanting more.
I haven't played SS, so I don't think my thoughts hold much weight, but I've wanted to run this AP for years.
So have I. The tropes of exploring an uncharted wilderness and a lost civilization are very attractive.
By the reading, I liked the whole AP (minor nitpicks aside, which I think is normal for published adventures) except for Book 2. Ultimately it just failed to deliver on the promise of the title. I didn't see where it was an actual race. Like, where is the risk of another faction getting ahead of you? Where is the opportunity to eff with a faction getting too close behind? Were there any real gambles you could take to cut time off your journey at greater risk?
Racing to Ruin has multiple failures as noted above.
* - Make sure you group won't have problems with Colonialism.* - As many commentators have pointed out - there are too many factions. Most "disappear" once the PCs choose to joint one.
* - The "railroad" is strong with this one. The module presumes that party must join one of the factions to find the lost city. Nothing prevents the heroes from selling their information, then completing what they were originally trying to do when the boarded the Jenivere.
On a personal desire, I wanted to see something that made it feel like more of an expedition than a regular D&D excursion. Maybe somehow adapt Jade Regent's caravan rules to account for leading a train of porters.
A word of caution. Those caravan rules are not universally loved.
So, on paper at least, I thought everything about Smuggler's Shiv and the actual exploration sounded great. It's just the "race" that left me wanting more.
Will your party want to help Pathfinder Juliver once the feeblemind is dispelled?
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A word of caution. Those caravan rules are not universally loved.
I've heard that. I honestly don't know much about it other than seeing it in th JR Player's Guide. I'm just old-school enough to really like a certain amount of resource management in my TTRPGs, and I miss it in elements like this where it's a long-term expedition, presumably with a bunch of support personnel. I feel the same about crew and cargo management in Skull & Shackles.
Will your party want to help Pathfinder Juliver once the feeblemind is dispelled?
My players have always been very good at following the carrot. That's never been a problem.
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I think this AP was quite high on the list of things that had people put their fist on the table and point out internal consistency wasn't a want but a need.
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I think it really needed to expand Book 3 to multiple books. The lost city in the middle of a jungle is a cool trope and gives off great pulp adventure vibes, and when you get there it's just... not that great. If I were to really put my back into GMing the module I'd feel like I had to totally rewrite the content of the book. Different factions, more ways to interact with them, all kinds of stuff. And sadly, I just don't think it would be worth the effort. After all, the reason I'm doing an AP is because I don't want to put in the work required to homebrew a campaign.
Then eventually you go underground and there's .. another city? That's also underdeveloped? Sigh.
The lost city and the interactions with its denizens should have been most of the campaign. Unfortunately it would require a complete rewrite of the plot and redesign of the modules. It's a tall order.
Another gripe I have with it is the repeated encounters. This is a problem in a lot of games for sure, but in a couple of the dungeons there's a lot of fighting enemies with identical stat blocks. In the serpent fortress in Book 5, it's just generic serpentfolk soldier group encounter, again and again. Now, I get that it's a fortress and fortresses have soliders so you should be ready to fight soldiers. It's realistic, I guess. But I don't know how a GM makes that interesting. A lot of the SS dungeons felt like a chore to run, as the encounter designs weren't very great.