| Frostfire v3 |
I'm looking for RAW ruling for the spell Skinsend and it's interaction with polymorph spells.
The spell creates a duplicate of yourself by tearing away your skin and having it animated as a construct for 1 hour/level.
The question is, what happens to your skin by RAW if you were under a transmutation effect like a Wild Shape or a polymorph?
There's a couple of points i would like to discuss.
1) The spell states: "You cause your own skin to peel off your body and animate as a magical creature you control."
This in my eyes has a couple of implications, first is that you retain any shape you had on yourself, for example a Dragon Form III.
Second is that the new creature created while having the skin of a dragon doesn't have any magical effects lingering from the dragon form spell and it retains it for it's whole duration and the the duration of the Dragon Form.
I've searched anywhere if a rule was present that could apply to such an odd case.
The only thing i was able to find were quotes from other spells that seem to confirm my idea of this combo working.
One is Enlarge Person that states: "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size."
Wich in existing by itself confirms that there is no general rule to be applied because if it existed there would be no need for a specification in enlarge person.
Wich truly seems to be the case since i've seen plently of threads talking about a dismembered polymorphed creature and what would happen in that case.
In addition spells like Bilocation or Akashic Form specifically state what happens to the magical effects on you, saying that they get carried over if still in effect while it doesn't for skinsend.
By a raw standpoint i believe this means that they stay on your base body only but at the same time since the construct created with Skinsend has to have the shape of your skin to have the spell do what it sais it does the skin also has to retain the shape of a dragon.
2) Then the spell follows up with:
"Your possessed skin is identical to you in all ways, except the following: It has only half the number of hit points you had at the time you cast the spell, and cannot be healed above this maximum; construct type, traits, and immunities; Str 3, Con —; DR 10/piercing or slashing; and compression (as the universal monster ability). Your skin can take any actions you could normally take in your own body (such as to fight or cast spells)."
The newly created construct is IDENTICAL to YOU, the same you that gains the benefits from Form of the Dragon.
You become a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a +2 size bonus to Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, fly 60 feet (poor), darkvision 60 fee etc.
If my reasoning is all correct, by a RAW standpoint, an Extended Skinsend could be used to.. extend.. the duration of any polymorph effect to 2 hours/level with the added benefits of becoming a construct but with the drawback of having 3 strength.
I specified multiple times that i would like a RAW ruling on the interaction because obviously the spell seems a little light on words compared to It's similar counterparts and because it is obviously an unintended side effect the guy that wrote it didnt think about.
Having the approval of the GM is not an issue, i'm trying to see if there's potential for a gimmick that could be used by both players and Gms.
If i had to play something like this i would first like to know if it works RAW at least to then show it to my GM, see if there'sany problem and then chosing with him how to fix them.
Now, if the interaction works as i said i would like to know how spells like Trueseeing or Cat's grace, etc. Would work when used with skinsend.
Or what if something like Ice body or Iron body that seem to imply you dont have skin anymore.
Or with Fluid Form that turns your skin into a slimy substance.
What do you think? Should they all simply be carried over into the new body? With the duration extended to that of skinsend, having all of the magical effects active while being also undispellable?
Interestingly Skinsend seem to even work inside an Antimagic Field by the spell's descriotion: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting."
Meaning that there could be some even more unintended but interesting implications.
Many thanks to all of those taking the time to read this wall of text and replying.
| happykj |
Read through the wall of text and slowly forgot the initial question....
Anyway, the skin is not self-supporting, so the antimagic field still have effect on it. There is a difference between construct created temporarily (eg: animate object) and construct that is permanently (eg: create construct feat). The skin still relying on something, such as if you regenarate new skin, then it dead, or more obviously is the spell duration.
| Frostfire v3 |
Read through the wall of text and slowly forgot the initial question....
Anyway, the skin is not self-supporting, so the antimagic field still have effect on it. There is a difference between construct created temporarily (eg: animate object) and construct that is permanently (eg: create construct feat). The skin still relying on something, such as if you regenarate new skin, then it dead, or more obviously is the spell duration.
Why did you comment then? Should i advise you to look for a medic regarding your memory problems?
Also if you read carefully you will see that Antimagic Field sais that constructs ARE self supporfing, not that only self supporting constructs can enter the field.
| happykj |
Why did you comment then?
to comment about the Antimagic field
The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that “are imbued with magic during their creation process" and "are thereafter self-supporting"
what it means is two conditions
1- if a construct is imbued with magic
2- if a construct can thereafter self-supporting
so if it is imbued with magic, but can thereafter self-supporting, then antimagic field has no effect.
It doesn't mean, if a construct is imbued with magic, then it is self-supporting
Edited: took me a while to find this, here is some description in Ultimate Magic that might be related
Animated Objects
Not all constructs are built with the Craft Construct feat. Spells like animate objects allow a caster to temporarily animate an existing object. These constructs are in many ways weaker than manufactured constructs, as they are susceptible to dispelling and antimagic.A caster can use the animate objects spell to instantly create a temporary construct. A permanency spell cast upon an animated object makes the construct permanent; however, it can still be dispelled or suppressed by
antimagic. Craft Construct creates permanent animated objects not susceptible to dispelling and antimagic. The CR of a potential animated object depends on its size and abilities, as explained in the animated object entry on page 14 of the Bestiary
| Pizza Lord |
The question is, what happens to your skin by RAW if you were under a transmutation effect like a Wild Shape or a polymorph?
A transmutation effect, at the time of casting skinsend should apply to the skin or be considered linked. If you are wild shaped or polymorphed then the skin will resemble that creature. If the duration of one of those effects ends or is dispelled at your body or your skin, then it should end in both places. Example, if you look like a dragon, your skin will look like a dragon. If you (your body) turns back into a troll, then the skin will assume the shape of a troll. Transmutations cast after the separation should only effect that aspect (the body or the skin, whichever the effect targets).
That should suffice for most common issues, but there's too many possible spells or effects to have a one-size-fits-all answer. For example, a GM could easily rule that having a spell that covers your skin in thorns will only be on the skin when it comes off and not also be on your (presumably skinless) body.
Other effects, like abjurations or Enchantments probably would not go with your skin. You could probably cast them later while inside your skin, assuming they apply to constructs or creatures with no Con.
If my reasoning is all correct, by a RAW standpoint, an Extended Skinsend could be used to.. extend.. the duration of any polymorph effect to 2 hours/level with the added benefits of becoming a construct but with the drawback of having 3 strength.
It will only extend the duration of the skinsend spell. It will not extend any other spells (unless you cast then as extended spells). Let's say you are polymorphed 1hr/level (CL 20) and you have 5 rounds left. You can't just cast extended skinsend and suddenly bump extend polymorph's duration to be be 2 hrs/level, or even only adding the extra 20 hours to it, or even doubling the remaining 5 rounds to 10. It doesn't work that way.
i would like to know how spells like Trueseeing or Cat's grace, etc. Would work when used with skinsend.
Cat's Grace is a transmutation spell. If it was on you, then I would say your skin would have the enhanced Dex (until the duration expires). Trueseeing is divination and, despite rubbing ointment on the eyes, it likely is mental and goes with the caster.
Or what if something like Ice body or Iron body that seem to imply you dont have skin anymore.
Spells are written with the assumption that the PC will be humanoid, have two arms and legs, have skin, have blood, be able to see, hear, speak and basically have the facilities or faculties of a normal PC race. Certainly, there are some exception, some PCs might have wings or tails, or other qualities, but the spells are written from a common standpoint.
If a caster doesn't have blood, spells that affect blood won't work. If they don't have hands, spells that turn hands into claws or grow claws won't work.
If the caster has a spell that makes their flesh basically 'not-flesh', like meld into stone, treeshape, or statue, gaseous form or wild shape that turns them into a fire elemental, then skinsend won't work. That's not to say they can't be cast or used afterwards when you're in the skin construct to give it those properties or effects.
Interestingly Skinsend seem to even work inside an Antimagic Field by the spell's descriotion: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting."
happykj is correct. Antimagic will suspend this spell. The golem and construct exception you pointed out (and which he replied to correctly) is meant to apply to crafted or constructed or otherwise permanently functioning creatures. Just like an animated object (meaning one animated by the spell) will be suppressed and turn back to a normal object, in this case, your skin will stop being animated. You could return to your real body or end the spell. Basically, a good rule of thumb is that any spell effect that has a duration (up to and including 'permanent'), will be affected by antimagic field and suppresed. Constructs don't typically have durations nor can they be disrupted or affected by things like dispel magic (unless it's a specific creature or construct).
| Frostfire v3 |
Ultimate Magic pg.111 wrote:Animated Objects
Not all constructs are built with the Craft Construct feat. Spells like animate objects allow a caster to temporarily animate an existing object. These constructs are in many ways weaker than manufactured constructs, as they are susceptible to dispelling and antimagic.A caster can use the animate objects spell to instantly create a temporary construct. A permanency spell cast upon an animated object makes the construct permanent; however, it can still be dispelled or suppressed by
antimagic. Craft Construct creates permanent animated objects not susceptible to dispelling and antimagic. The CR of a potential animated object depends on its size and abilities, as explained in the animated object entry on page 14 of the Bestiary
This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.
| Frostfire v3 |
frostfire v3 wrote:The question is, what happens to your skin by RAW if you were under a transmutation effect like a Wild Shape or a polymorph?A transmutation effect, at the time of casting skinsend should apply to the skin or be considered linked. If you are wild shaped or polymorphed then the skin will resemble that creature. If the duration of one of those effects ends or is dispelled at your body or your skin, then it should end in both places. Example, if you look like a dragon, your skin will look like a dragon. If you (your body) turns back into a troll, then the skin will assume the shape of a troll. Transmutations cast after the separation should only effect that aspect (the body or the skin, whichever the effect targets).
That should suffice for most common issues, but there's too many possible spells or effects to have a one-size-fits-all answer. For example, a GM could easily rule that having a spell that covers your skin in thorns will only be on the skin when it comes off and not also be on your (presumably skinless) body.
Other effects, like abjurations or Enchantments probably would not go with your skin. You could probably cast them later while inside your skin, assuming they apply to constructs or creatures with no Con.
Frostfire v3 wrote:If my reasoning is all correct, by a RAW standpoint, an Extended Skinsend could be used to.. extend.. the duration of any polymorph effect to 2 hours/level with the added benefits of becoming a construct but with the drawback of having 3 strength.It will only extend the duration of the skinsend spell. It will not extend any other spells (unless you cast then as extended spells). Let's say you are polymorphed 1hr/level (CL 20) and you have 5 rounds left. You can't just cast extended skinsend and suddenly bump extend polymorph's duration to be be 2 hrs/level, or even only adding the extra 20 hours to it, or even doubling the remaining 5 rounds to 10. It doesn't work that way....
Sorry but this all seem like your personal interpretation and not at all RAW like i requested.
What is a linked spell in pathfinder?
Where does it say that the polymorph effect ends on the skinsend?
Or where does it say it gets transferred.
| happykj |
This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.
Pathetic. You are so wrapped up in your own arrogant thoughts that you don't listen to anything.
Interestingly Skinsend seem to even work inside an Antimagic Field by the spell's descriotion: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting."
Because of your wrong understanding, you think the sentence means "all constructs are automatically considered as self-supporting", thus you said "skinsend is self-supporting construct".
This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.
So your initial interpretation, "every construct is self-supporting" is definitely denied by the Animated Object rule. But, you somehow still thinking that "skinsend is self-supporting construct".
There is not such things as "because Animated Object is affected by antimagic, then all constructs except it are not affected", the Dev is not going to list down one by one like teaching kindergarten.
If you are expecting only "voice of agreement", then you are not worthy for any further reply.
| Frostfire v3 |
Frostfire v3 wrote:This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.Pathetic. You are so wrapped up in your own arrogant thoughts that you don't listen to anything.
You said wrote:Interestingly Skinsend seem to even work inside an Antimagic Field by the spell's descriotion: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting."Because of your wrong understanding, you think the sentence means "all constructs are automatically considered as self-supporting", thus you said "skinsend is self-supporting construct".
You said wrote:This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.So your initial interpretation, "every construct is self-supporting" is definitely denied by the Animated Object rule. But, you somehow still thinking that "skinsend is self-supporting construct".
There is not such things as "because Animated Object is affected by antimagic, then all constructs except it are not affected", the Dev is not going to list down one by one like teaching kindergarten.
If you are expecting only "voice of agreement", then you are not worthy for any further reply.
If you dont like how the game works don't play it.
If a spell specifies a particular interaction with another that only applies to that specific spell, even if the same reasoning could be applied to a different but similar spell.
What you're doing is houseruling when i specifically asked for RAW rulings.
I don't care that you think a construct animated with Animate Onject is more similar to one created with Skinsend than a regular permanent one.
Rules As Written means that you only apply the rules that are written on the spell, not those you make up with your mind because you believe that is how it should work, even if the rules at times don't make logical sense.
I asked for RAW, if i want to make any kind of modification to it i'll be the one to do it.
You also call me pathetic for not agreeing with your flawed arguments, i wonder who is truly pathetic here.
Honestly i don't expect the "voice of agreement", but i expected people able to read a post and read spell effects and then comment based and what is written there and not his personal interpretation.
Happy that you will not participate any further to this discussion.
Edit: Went looking around for where the quote from animate objects comes from because it's not from the spell or the animated objects page either.
It comes from a page about crafting constructs.
This means the quote is not referring only to Animate Objects as the spell but to the whole category.
I was sure the quote was coming from the spell itself, in wich case i would have been right, but i was not.
Meaning that both of you were right in saying that by RAW skinsend doesn't work inside a Antimagic Field.
Still your behaviour for such a minor thing tells much about you, such an overreaction just because i insisted a little thinking that i was in the right, I can confirm i'm happy you won't comment any further.
| Tom Sampson |
I recommend you both dispense with the personal attacks and general hostility as that is both unproductive and liable to result in moderator intervention, perhaps even get the thread locked, and that would be a pity, as there are many good questions being asked here.
I will agree with this much: that it is poor conduct to disparage others and accuse them of arrogance and refusing to listen for disagreeing with an interpretation, but if you must rebuke someone, please do so civilly and avoid personal attacks.
Now, to answer your rules questions:
Question 1: (a) Does Skinsend retain polymorph effects cast upon the original caster, and if so, (b) does your Skinsend replicate the shape of the polymorph without replicating the spell itself?
1a) Yes, going by RAW, when you use Skinsend, it adopts your existing shape at the time.
1b) There are no firm rules one way or another, and as such variation can be expected, but I am inclined to rule No here. The issue is that Skinsend is not creating a new copy of your original shape but is animating your existing skin. Reasonably speaking, any polymorph that affected you before casting Skinsend would be affecting your skin, therefore Skinsend is inheriting the original polymorph effect as it splits you into two creatures (1 helpless, 1 possessed & animated). This polymorph effect upon your skin can be expired, dispelled, etc. as normal, and would end at its normal time. Meaning, a spell that originally had 1 target now operates as if it targeted 2.
Question 2: (a) Would Skinsend effectively replicate a polymorph effect's benefits for the entirety of its duration by adopting your shape despite not benefiting from a polymorph, and (b) would this apply to effects like True Seeing?
2a) It would indeed work that way if Skinsend were indeed creating a copy of your form, but as it is borrowing your existing skin, your skin is merely affected by the original spell, which expires as normal, so this does not work.
2b) There are no firm rules distinctions, but in the hypothetical world where Skinsend were to produce a copy of your body, in practice the answer can be expected to be No. Copying your body is one matter, but True Seeing would not be regarded as part of the body but rather copying a spell buff upon it.
Question 3: Does Skinsend continue to work inside an Antimagic Field, by being a construct?
3) No, the Skinsend construct does not count as "self-supporting" as the construct is supported by the active duration of Skinsend's magic. Entering an AMF means the Skinsend spell would be suspended and you are back in your body and helpless.
| Azothath |
In a brief history of the transition from D&D3.5 to PF1, Polymorph spells received a rework and general nerfing(lessening of power). A big change was the loss of a new type, so the spells now just make you adopt a look and keep your type (humanoid). Monster descriptions are used to see what abilities you get from a curated laundry list of gained abilities.
>> see the Transmutation School Description and the spell in question.
Going with Tom Sampson's paraphrasing of the OP's questions.
I will assume a standard humanoid(human) wizard female with casting ability score 18(+4), level 5, HP:22.
1 A) If she casts Alter Self:T2 into a medium humanoid (elf drow) the caster gains +2 siz Str, darkvision 60 feet (rather than the drow's 120ft), and she looks like a drow for 5 minutes. That's it, no SR, no SLAs, no languages or weapon proficiencies, and no light blindness.
If she then casts Skinsend:N2 then the skin she sheds looks like a drow's skin until the Alter Self expires. Skinsend has a duration of 5hrs so alter self will expire first.
1 B) no. Skinsend does not replicate another spell effect, it just does what the description says it does. The active spell alter self does the changing.
2 A) no. See 1).
2 B) no. True Seeing will penetrate the polymorph (if it is active) showing a human skin under the effects of magic.
3) no, it is a spell and not a magic item or crafted construct. The skinsend and alter self are suppressed but not dispelled while in the area of effect(AoE) of the antimagic field(AMF). Likely while in the AMF the skin disappears (like conjured creatures, the spell creates the skin construct as a spell effect) but is not back on the caster (assuming the caster is not in the AoE of the AMF), or (rare GM call) lays there as an inactive human skin sending no sensory information (but could take damage).
Lastly, getting an official RAW ruling is not possible as designers stopped commenting that way and clarified that they are personal opinions and not RAW many years ago AND development of PF1 stopped couple years ago so there will be no comment or FAQ updates from Paizo staff.
Comment: I think the best way to learn close to RAW PF1 is to join a PFS PF1 game in your area or online. The GMs can answer questions for spells that your PC can cast before the game starts, so text or email them early.
| Joesi |
I've had a fondness for Skinsend and I've thought a lot about it, so I wonder why I never thought much about polymorphing with it. It might have crossed my mind once but then didn't get into it.
I understand your proposed reasoning, but I'd say it wouldn't work like that. At the least for balance reasons, but I think this conclusion (or at least interpretation) can be obtained from the RAW too.
Perhaps I'm biased in saying the following, but I'd say that the only thing it could prolong is any spell effects that buff HP since it specifically says that the creature is created with half your current HP (and temporary HP counts towards current HP). It effectively converts temporary HP into permanent/base HP (probably not intentional to be fair, but it doesn't seem too bad to me considering that one gets it all cut in half along with their base HP). This is because aside from that specific claim on HP, it talks about being identical to the PC, not identical to the PC with spell effects. Like it's not going to copy Barkskin or Stoneskin; or at least I would assert that it would not, maybe you would disagree. As you can see it would apply to more than just polymorph spells, but a whole can of worms that would be even more OP than the already OP of a single polymorph spell getting partially or entirely copied.
Because of this, I would tend to say that Skinsend would have a bit of a nonsensical effect when polymorphed in that it would somehow cause your natural form's skin to peel off the polymorphed form's body. I know that that doesn't make much sense; how would it work? magic, I guess. Let's say that as the skin peels off it creates the form of the creature's base form with that skin, and any extra skin either shrinks into itself, or just stays sloughed off in a pile going unused (and if the polymorph form is smaller then the skin expands). So I guess with dragon form you'd still look like a draconianish humanoid.
| Mysterious Stranger |
Skinsend animates your skin and only your skin. Any spells that affect your skin should carry over to the new form. It does not interact with the polymorph spells, so does not extend its duration. Once the polymorph spell ends so do any effects of the polymorph spell. Any effect that requires more than you skin will not be carried over. Increased STR usually relies on muscle and skeleton so would not carry over.
Your GM will need to decide what effects the new form gains.
| Joesi |
Any spells that affect your skin should carry over to the new form.
I was going to say in my post that this is also a rather viable way of ruling, but probably less RAW-based and more realistic/logical extension of the rules (because the skin is technically a new creature so nothing should carry over by RAW unless explicitly stated).
And while it is certainly viable, it can result in some confusion/uncertainty and a lot of houseruling as to what transfers over to the skin and what does not. It would likely involve a lot of OOC metagame conversation to see what will work and what won't.
Perhaps the biggest issue would be deciding how HP spell effects transfer over, since the new creature's HP is already set to half the current HP of whatever the caster had, and transferring over the spell effect on top of that would double-dip the HP, giving more HP overall than it should (1.5x effectiveness). I guess you could say that the base skin creature HP would just not use any temporary HP of the caster (which as far as I know goes against RAW, but in this case might be RAI, or at least is balanced)
| Azothath |
Mysterious Stranger wrote:Any spells that affect your skin should carry over to the new form.... It would likely involve a lot of OOC metagame conversation to see what will work and what won't.
...
while common that is the wrong way to go about things. PCs have Knowledge and Spellcraft skills and those along with basic INT checks are used to know things without practicing them in game. Stop replacing skills with metagaming. It's totally okay if the PC does stuff in downtime (expending time and spell slots, etc) and gets information back from the GM as to how things went.
I'm not aware that "skin" is a valid target for any spell, even Slough:T5.
"you" is the personal spell descriptor and the question is does "you" transition to the animated skin and the spell description answers that in the opening. No, animate as a magical creature you control. It's less clear with Shadow Projection:N4. Magic Jar/Possession is a clear No. If it were a transmutation(polymorph) with the caster becoming the skin it would be Yes. With all that if a GM Home Rules it's okay - count your blessings and run with it.
The standard procedure for these kind of spells is to layout what the new form cannot use (that would meld) or that you want to use (slower but avoids MIBS questions) and pick them up and don them in the new form after the spell takes effect. It takes several rounds of swapping about. With skinsend, the skin is technically already wearing everything - so take what's useful and that you don't mind losing if you're "killed".
Magic Item Body Slots(MIBS & MIBS for PFS) for non-humanoids kinda set what does and does not meld in a polymorph.
Diego Rossi
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Joesi wrote:while common that is the wrong way to go about things. PCs have Knowledge and Spellcraft skills and those along with basic INT checks are used to know things without practicing them in game. Stop replacing skills with metagaming. It's totally okay if the PC does stuff in downtime (expending time and spell slots, etc) and gets information back from the GM as to how things went.Mysterious Stranger wrote:Any spells that affect your skin should carry over to the new form.... It would likely involve a lot of OOC metagame conversation to see what will work and what won't.
...
What the PCs know thanks to their skills is irrelevant, until the metagaming discussion between the GM and the layers decides how this stuff works. The rules about what spells stay with your original body and what "travel" when you use skinsend, magic jar, possess, and so on are really lacking.
In the passage from D&D BECSM and AD&D to D&D 3rd ed. and then Pathfinder higher-level spells have become way more widely used, but the rules have lagged behind in defining how they work.