Hello,
just starting a game 1e, looking for some advice of tweaks or additions to potential build
So str 20 dex 15 con 17 int 16 wis 14 cha 17
I might be able to swap numbers around or maybe adjust but this was the pre-made
level 1 half elf paladin.
Other characters have similar stats, warpriest, swashbuckler, rogue and magus.
Where I could use feedback is feat choice for level 1
Also if pali 2, sorceror 3, dragon disciple X would work well any feats i should look into etc.
looking at magical knack and/or arcane scholar for possible traits if they are approved
Not sure on bloodlines, but thinking crossblooded, arcane/draconic
That's a 65 point build - your stats are WAY more than fine. leave them as is.
feat choice for a level 1 paladin? easy Weapon Focus.
I'd personally go straight Paladin. mixing with a caster causes problems with action economy.
For feats Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spell caster can give you back the 3 spell levels that Dragon Disciple cost. It cost 4 feats, but you gain the full casting level including spells known. The two levels of Paladin will still put you behind on spells known even with Magic Knack. Arcane Armor Training and Mastery will reduce your chance of arcane armor failure. If you go with elven or a mithral breastplate you have no chance of failure. This is going to take most of your feats but will work. The draconic bloodline will allow you to pick up power attack, toughness and great fortitude.
Your big advantage is going to be the fact you have the best defenses of the party. Your saving throws are going to be absurd, and your AC will often be the best in the game. Your touch AC will be the only thing to worry about, but even that will still be decent when you are going against something you have declared a smite evil on.
Your primary role will be that of a spell caster, not a melee front liner. You will have slightly better spells than the rest of your party. At 15th level you will have access to 6th level spells, where the warpriest and magus will have 5th levels spells. You will still be strong enough in melee that you don’t have to use spells against lower-level threats.
Since you will not be mixing casting and melee the issue with the action economy is not that big of a deal. Your lay on hands are too weak to really be effective in combat so will not compete for the swift action. You only have a single smite evil and that will probably be done when you are using Form of the Dragon. When you finally gain Form of the Dragon your ability to go Nova is incredible. Turning into a large dragon and getting power attack and smite evil is very powerful.
Don't go crossblooded reducing your spells known on this build is not worth it.
You may want to consider paladin 3/sorcerer 2 before dragon disciple. Aura of Courage and Divine Health are pretty nice to have (immunities are powerful).
Also, I would recommend only taking four levels of dragon disciple and switching to eldritch knight for the BAB and better spell progression.
Take Magical Knack (Sorcerer) as one of your traits to keep the CL hit from getting too far out of line.
A decent progression (IMO):
Pal 1- use Adaptability for Skill Focus (Knowledge [Planes]) or Skill Focus (Survival); Power Attack (higher value than Weapon Focus)
Pal 2- for Divine Grace as quickly as possible
Sor 1- you might consider crossblooded Draconic/Orc (the Orc bloodline arcana adds +1 per die for any damaging spell, without needing to match the energy type; will preclude the character from taking Eldritch Heritage in the Orc bloodline); Arcane Armor Training (with Magical Knack, the character has CL 3 even though they only have spell slots as a sorcerer 1; retrain to Quicken Spell later when gaining 5th-level spells), Eschew Materials (bonus feat)
Pal 3- +1 Cha; for Aura of Courage and Divine Health
Sor 2- Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal or Orc Bloodline)
DD 1- gain the Dragon Resistances bloodline power via Blood of Dragons
DD 2- Ability Boost (+2 Str), Bloodline Feat (Toughness); feat
DD 3- +1 Cha
DD 4- Ability Boost (+2 Str); feat
Sor 3- for spell progression as a sorcerer 6 (3rd-level spells)
EK 1- Bonus Combat Feat (choice); Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Abyss or Strength of the Beast for a scaling inherent Str bonus; +2 at character level 11, increasing to +4 at character level 15 and +6 at character level 19)
stay in eldritch knight for the next 9 character levels, with all remaining advancements in Cha
It really depends on what you want out of the character. Taking more levels of paladin will make his spells and bloodline abilities much weaker. 4th level grants channel energy increased lay on hand healing, an extra smite evil and paladin spells. Each level after that gives something and increases other abilities. Before long the character ends up pure paladin.
Eldritch Knight Also does not progress the bloodline abilities. You would also need to take more levels in dragon disciple or sorcerer to qualify if you took the 3rd level in paladin. Or you could take favored prestige class and prestigious caster, but only that only gets you a single caster level. If you do that you end up with losing 2 caster level even with magical knack.
There is also already a magus in the party. The eldritch knight build is going to make the character have similar abilities. My build is focusing more on the draconic and spells than the melee combat ability. It gains some more powerful abilities, and its magic is stronger than the eldritch knight build. Having a 13d6 breath weapon instead of 6d6 and fire resistance of 30 instead of 5 is worth more than then a slightly higher BAB. Bring in being able to turn into a dragon and fly makes it even more useful.
The progression above (paladin 2/sorcerer 1/paladin +1/sorcerer +1/dragon disciple 4/sorcerer +1/eldritch knight 10) is a melee/blaster switch hitter that ends up at 20th character level with +17 BAB (more than "slightly higher" compared to a paladin 2/sorcerer 3/dragon disciple 10/sorcerer +5 at +13 BAB), 30 Str (not counting buffs/magical items; hits like a truck without Spellstrike, possibly with a reach weapon), and 22 Cha using the ability scores from the OP (personally, I'd switch Dex and Con, as well). Immunity to all disease and fear is also gained earlier than that higher resistance in one energy type (at which point resist energy should be a staple spell, anyway).
With two feats, spell progression will be equal to a sorcerer 16 (8th-level spells, including form of the dragon III) with CL 18. Speaking of feats, I prefer the wider selection of eldritch knight bonus feats to the bloodline feats anyway.
Basically, the progression above will be much more effective as a combatant while only slightly less effective as a blaster caster.
You only have a single smite evil and that will probably be done when you are using Form of the Dragon. When you finally gain Form of the Dragon your ability to go Nova is incredible. Turning into a large dragon and getting power attack and smite evil is very powerful.
The Smite Evil damage bonus is equal to the character's Paladin level. Sure, you'll get a great attack bonus (which is equal to the character's Charisma modifier), but 2 levels of Paladin means just a +2 damage bonus. If this character maxes out Dragon Disciple, the highest his Smite Evil damage bonus will be is +7 (assuming all remaining levels go to Paladin). Bracers of the Avenging Knight would be a good investment.
My build will have the spell access of an 18th level sorcerer, with a caster level of 20. That gives me 9th level spells. That would be Paladin 2/ sorcerer of 8/ Dragon Disciple of 10. I will also have a 18d6 breath weapon usable 3/day vs a 7d6 breath weapon usable 1/day. My energy resistance will be 10 compared to 5. My CON and INT will be 2 higher. My Natural AC bonus will be +7 instead of +3. I will be able to use Form of the Dragon II twice a day without using a spell. I will have more HP and spells known due to favored class bonus. My saves will be better. Eldritch Knight does not grant bloodline spells so you will be down some spells known.
You only have 19 levels so are one short I assume you would put the final level into DD and take prestigious caster to maintain the caster level and gain blindsense. That will bring up the feats required to 3 not 2. Your BAB will be 4 higher. You will be ahead in the feats as you gain 3 from EK, and 2 DD. You will be immune to fear and disease.
I can pick up the Transformation which can put me to FULL BAB when I need it. At that point a lot of your advantages go away. You could also take the spell but gain a lot less from it. Your build has some advantages in melee but gives up a lot to gain them. My build has more powerful abilities but has relies more on expendable resources. When fully functioning, mine is more powerful.
You only have 19 levels so are one short I assume you would put the final level into DD and take prestigious caster to maintain the caster level and gain blindsense.
Algebra: Pal 2/Sor 1/Pal +1/Sor +1/DD 4/Sor +1/EK 10 = Pal 3/Sor 3/DD 4/EK 10. You are still caught up on the first sentence of my first post, which states "You may want to consider paladin 3/sorcerer 2 before dragon disciple."
Please do me the courtesy of actually reading what I wrote. Strawman arguments ("4th level grants channel energy increased lay on hand healing, an extra smite evil and paladin spells. Each level after that gives something and increases other abilities. Before long the character ends up pure paladin.") and moving goalposts ("I can pick up the Transformation which can put me to FULL BAB when I need it."; as if a 6th-level spell is not available to both progressions, not to mention the drawback "You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.") do not make you "right."
The EK build actually has a +1 advantage on Reflex saves not Fortitude. The Extra CON from the DD levels brings the save to +11. The extra level of paladin gives a +1 to Reflex saves.
A robe of arcane heritage would also be useful for this character. This will give the EK build some extra abilities and improve some of those he has. He will gain and extra use of this breath weapon and increase the damage to 11d6. He will also improve his fire resistance to 10 and natural AC to 4.
Bloodline spells are a feature of the bloodline so a robe of arcane heritage will also grant those to both builds. The DD build will gain fear and spell resistance as spells known but will not get any of the form of the dragon spells. He can of course choose those as spells known, but that puts him further behind the pure DD build. The DD build on gains a single spell known from the robe, but that spell is Wish.
The robe does not have any limit to how high the bloodline ability can be raised, so it can actually exceed 20th level. That means the DD build breath weapon increases to 22d6 and can now use it 4 times per day. It also allows the character to gain the 20th level bloodline abilities. That means the character is not immune to sleep, paralysis and his bloodlines energy type. Immunity to fire (or any energy type) is a lot more powerful than immunity to fear, especially to something with a sky high will save.
By taking the final levels of sorcerer after the levels of DD it allows the character to choose higher level spells known for the half elf favored class bonus. That and the higher caster level gives the DD build the following extra spells known 2 9th, 3 8th, 4 7th, 3 6th spells. Knowing an extra 88 combined spell levels is more than a slight advantage.
Without prestigious caster the eldritch knight build looks better. It would mean that you only lose 2 caster levels instead of 3. At that point their spell casting is pretty comparable. If you were reduce the paladin level to 2 and increase the sorcerer level to 5 that build would be a more powerful build than the dragon disciple build without prestigious caster. That would mean the DD highest level spell would be 7th but the EK build would still have 8th level spells.