Alright, so this happened in session. It was a spur of the moment, and I told my players “Hey, I’m not sure about this. I’m going to rule it as X, I’ll give a firm ruling later.”
Alright Players are fighting an enemy, enemy is in the doorway, blocking them. Player wants to reposition, so basically they’d trade places with the enemy. I just ruled it as a normal reposition action.
Which seems extremely generous. So, going forward in the future: How can I rule/invoke this to be more fair?
My original way, I could see this getting abused to flank. Not to mention it steps on the toes for Tumble Through, Swap Reflections and Unexpected Transposition.
I was thinking: The instigator triggers any movement based reactions, takes two actions, counts as two attacks for MAP and increase the DC by +5.
Unlike Shove, Reposition doesn't allow the actor to move as part of the action. If the enemy could be moved diagonally to the side of the character, then the Reposition action could move them to that square and out of the doorway. But if that kind of diagonal movement isn't available, and if they also couldn't be Shoved backwards out of the door, there's no RAW basic action that can force them out of the doorway.
That said, I think a Pull action that mimics Shove in reverse is a reasonable extension of Reposition. If you allow that, then the player can try to Pull the enemy into their current space while striding directly back one space. If that succeeds they could then use a second action to Reposition them to the side, or they could Tumble Through to the now vacated spot. This is similar in action cost to your proposed Swap but not as strong since it needs two successful checks (or a crit success on the Pull might get the enemy out of the door so the player could just Stride around them).
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Alright, so this happened in session. It was a spur of the moment, and I told my players “Hey, I’m not sure about this. I’m going to rule it as X, I’ll give a firm ruling later.”
Alright Players are fighting an enemy, enemy is in the doorway, blocking them. Player wants to reposition, so basically they’d trade places with the enemy. I just ruled it as a normal reposition action.
Which seems extremely generous. So, going forward in the future: How can I rule/invoke this to be more fair?
I think you made a good in the moment call, to try it out but not promise that it would work like that forever.
My original way, I could see this getting abused to flank. Not to mention it steps on the toes for Tumble Through, Swap Reflections and Unexpected Transposition.
Unexpected Transposition and Swap Reflections are both quite long range effects, I wouldn't worry too much about stepping their toes. Those toes are 30/120 feet away.
Tumble Through uses a different skill so a rogue might prefer to use that, rather than Athletics (Dexterity vs Strength based).
As for flanking/off-guard: there's quite a lot of ways to set up flanking. Reposition is already good for setting up flanking actually, and that's just standard rules. At later levels it's not that rare for an enemy to be off-guard for three different reasons at the same time, but it doesn't stack of course.
I was thinking: The instigator triggers any movement based reactions, takes two actions, counts as two attacks for MAP and increase the DC by +5.
I think then you make it so hard, that you've effectively forbidden it. Compare it to repositioning someone to the side and stepping, or shoving them twice. Those are both easier and less risky, and only in a few rare cases is their result really worse.
I do think a Drag maneuver, basically the opposite of Shove, makes sense.
It might also be an interesting new Athletics skill feat to be able to swap spots with an enemy in fewer actions/checks than if you're doing it bit by bit with maneuvers.
I think then you make it so hard, that you've effectively forbidden it. Compare it to repositioning someone to the side and stepping, or shoving them twice. Those are both easier and less risky, and only in a few rare cases is their result really worse.
That’s a very fair point.
It’s not out of malice that I am thought of those difficulty modifiers. It’s more of me trying to adhere to the design philosophy of Pf2e: Avoid doing multiple checks to do an action.
Cause at the end of the day, this is a Tumble-Through (Moving into the enemy’s space) done in tandem with Pull/Push/Reposition (Move enemy into previous space). I might just have to bite the bullet and say “Ok this is the best way I’ve got for it, I know this breaks some design tenants. But this is the exception to the rule.”
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I would allow Reposition to move an enemy into one's own space - effectively considering yourself to be a willing creature that allows the enemy to share your space temporarily. Then since that is an illegal final position for characters in combat (allies or not), the character has to spend a next action to Stride, Step or otherwise move to a different location.
So TL;DR, swapping positions using Reposition would be two actions and one unmodified Reposition check.
I would allow Reposition to move an enemy into one's own space - effectively considering yourself to be a willing creature that allows the enemy to share your space temporarily. Then since that is an illegal final position for characters in combat (allies or not), the character has to spend a next action to Stride, Step or otherwise move to a different location.
So TL;DR, swapping positions using Reposition would be two actions and one unmodified Reposition check.
Hmm having it two actions and without modifying the DC: I’d be fine with that it if it also provoked any movement-based reactions. Mush like how if you (Critically) succeed at Shove, you can stride. I think baking in a free “step” would be a little too generous.
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It's not a free Step. You're actually taking a Step. That's why it takes two actions: one for the Reposition and one for the Step.
The only free part is that you're permitting to reposition an enemy into your own square, on condition that you then immediately leave that square yourself with another action.
I would allow Reposition to move an enemy into one's own space - effectively considering yourself to be a willing creature that allows the enemy to share your space temporarily. Then since that is an illegal final position for characters in combat (allies or not), the character has to spend a next action to Stride, Step or otherwise move to a different location.
So TL;DR, swapping positions using Reposition would be two actions and one unmodified Reposition check.
That's a great bit of guidance and points to some good text to keep in mind generally. Being able to move and share a prone ally's space is a niche scenario that's quite likely to be relevant, and perhaps life-saving. (it leaves no gap for the foe to get past w/o Tumble Through)
Before I read you post, I would have allowed it by preparing a Reaction to move yourself, once the Reposition to put them in your space triggers.
You ruling both helps in terms of the action cost better matching with the mechanical benefit, and actually adjudicating the issue of sharing space instead of dodging it like mine would have.
I would allow Reposition to move an enemy into one's own space - effectively considering yourself to be a willing creature that allows the enemy to share your space temporarily. Then since that is an illegal final position for characters in combat (allies or not), the character has to spend a next action to Stride, Step or otherwise move to a different location.
So TL;DR, swapping positions using Reposition would be two actions and one unmodified Reposition check.
That's a great bit of guidance and points to some good text to keep in mind generally. Being able to move and share a prone ally's space is a niche scenario that's quite likely to be relevant, and perhaps life-saving. (it leaves no gap for the foe to get past w/o Tumble Through)
Before I read you post, I would have allowed it by preparing a Reaction to move yourself, once the Reposition to put them in your space triggers.
You ruling both helps in terms of the action cost better matching with the mechanical benefit, and actually adjudicating the issue of sharing space instead of dodging it like mine would have.
So trying to anticipate my players, I have something in mind and expanded the action.
It also covers: What if I want to drag an enemy away? What if the target is willing? What if the target is unconscious or dead?
I could see them wanting to drag an enemy further away, and move an ally in combat. Or drag an unconscious ally away from danger.
This sort of fudges the rules of only being able to drag creatures (within your bulk limit) to 50 feet per minute. But, I don’t see it as a problem.
Traits: Attack
Requirements: You either have at least one hand free, or you’re grabbing or restraining the target. The target can’t be more than one size larger than you.
You muscle a creature or object around. You can move into the target’s square. At the same time, your target can be moved into your previous space or the desired area. This is considered forced movement for your target. Attempt an Athletics check against the target’s Fortitude DC.
Note:
If the target is a willing creature the DC is reduced by -2
Not including inanimate objects, if the target is unconscious or dead, the DC is reduced by -5
This is beholden to any abilities/feats/spells that affect the DC of Reposition, such as the Rock Dwarf Heritage and Titan Wrestler.
Critical Success: You move the target up to 10 feet. It must remain within your reach during this movement, and you can’t move it into or through obstacles. You can Stride with it, but you must move the same distance.
Success: You move the target up to 5 feet. It must remain within your reach during this movement, and you can’t move it into or through obstacles. You can Stride with it, but you must move the same distance.
Critical Failure: The target can move you up to 5 feet as though it successfully Repositioned you.
I know this sort of steps on Shove’s, Repositions and Tumble Throughs toes. But given those are single actions where this one is a double action keeps it balanced. At least I think so.
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... I would have allowed it by preparing a Reaction to move yourself, once the Reposition to put them in your space triggers...
Ready is a two-action activity that ends your turn. You cannot Ready an action for two actions, then use the third action to trigger the readied reaction.
It's not a free Step. You're actually taking a Step. That's why it takes two actions: one for the Reposition and one for the Step.
The only free part is that you're permitting to reposition an enemy into your own square, on condition that you then immediately leave that square yourself with another action.
I would make the second part a stride because you're moving "through" an enemy, thus treating it as difficult terrain like Tumble Through. If there's an ability that lets you move through enemies without treating them as difficult terrain, I would let that apply here to change the stride into a step. I'm not sure that I would let Feather Step apply since the difficulty is not terrain.
(also, making it a stride preempts potential issues with the enemy standing in difficult/greater difficult terrain)
edit to add: I would actually have the initial movement cost 10' so if someone could step 10' e.g. Tiger Stance then a step would be ok. That cost stacks with other movement costs in the destination square. So it's not inherently a stride or a step, just a movement cost that usually needs a stride.
I would make the second part a stride because you're moving "through" an enemy, thus treating it as difficult terrain like Tumble Through. If there's an ability that lets you move through enemies without treating them as difficult terrain, I would let that apply here to change the stride into a step. I'm not sure that I would let Feather Step apply since the difficulty is not terrain.(also, making it a stride preempts potential issues with the enemy standing in difficult/greater difficult terrain)
That is a fair point, I neglected to account for difficult terrain. Would create a headache if two creatures were in difficult terrain and one tried to Excessive Reposition the other. Given the whole rules with forced movement and what not.
I am going to remove the Critical Success effect as this is starting to become too long for 1 action.
Traits: Attack
Requirements: You either have at least one hand free, or you’re grabbing or restraining the target. The target can’t be more than one size larger than you.
You muscle a creature/object around and can try to move into the target square. Attempt an Athletics check against the target’s Fortitude DC.
Note:
If the target is a willing creature the DC is reduced by -2
If the target is unconscious or dead, the DC is reduced by -5
This is beholden to any abilities/feats/spells that affect the DC of Reposition, such as the Rock Dwarf Heritage and Titan Wrestler.
Success: You can move the target up to 10 feet. You can move through an enemy’s space, treating the squares in its space as difficult terrain (every 5 feet costs 10 feet of movement). If you don’t have enough Speed to move all the way through its space, you get the same effect as a failure. You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance. It must also remain within your reach during this movement and you can’t move it into or through obstacles.
Critical Failure: The target can move you up to 5 feet as though it successfully Repositioned you.
Better?