Regain Panache with non-lethal Damage?

[Ifusaso]

The Panache Class feature allows for a couple ways to replenish your point pool. One is:

Quote:

Killing Blow with a Light or One-Handed Piercing Melee Weapon: When the swashbuckler reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon attack while in combat, she regains 1 panache point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points doesn’t restore any panache.

My question is, if a Swashbuckler (or other class with this Feature) knocks out a target using non-lethal damage, is it intended that they regain Panache?

Clearly, the rules for non-lethal damage is that you 'add up' from 0 to reduce a creature's "effective" hit points. The creature is not "reduce(d)... to 0 or fewer hit points". However, I'm not sure if it was intended that the ability not interact with non-lethal damage or if that was oversight.

[Mallecks]

You are correct, nonlethal damage would not trigger this ability RAW until after you have an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their hit points and then continue the nonlethal attacks until the target takes enough lethal damage that their HP is reduced to 0 or lower.

If you want to have a non-lethal based character, you may be able to work with your GM. I had a GM that let a "nonlethal character" perform nonlethal coups de grace, which I believe is traditionally seen as not allowed.

[thaX]

The intent is to regain Panache when the target is taken out of the fight. With Non-Lethal damage, you take the effective HP of the target down to where he no longer can fight back. I would say one would regain Panache if the combined damage and Non-Lethal would have the target go unconscious. This would also make it so that the Swashbuckler is not punished when others in his group has down Non-Lethal to the target.

The fact that a target that is unconscious would be helpless means that hitting him again will not regain the Panache, so it is likely not the intent to limit the "O HP" to mean just Lethal HP damage.

[Cavall]

Knock the person out, gain panache. Don't overthink it.

[Butt_Luckily]

I am not too sure that it is intended that they regain panache.

The rule specifically refers to this as a "killing blow".

[thaX]

So when the Swashbuckler is still doing lethal damage, but the Monk did Non Lethal, the target is still "taken out" but does not actually start to "die." Should the player be told he does not get Panache because "Monk."

[Butt_Luckily]

And if someone has Diehard or some similar ability that prevents them from falling unconscious when reduced to negative hit points? They are not "taken out of the fight".

[Warped Savant]

Zero hit points doesn't take the creature out of the fight, it makes them staggered.

As for when the target has taken some nonlethal and some lethal, that will be your GMs discretion. Nonlethal is not clarified well enough in the rules and this thread could easily turn into 15+ pages of people arguing about it. (But we're already partaking in a very similar discussion on another thread.)

[Talonhawke]

Based on exact ruling non-lethal would actually make matters worse since them going unconscious would prevent any from being regained once you did kill them.

[Diego Rossi]

Only lethal damage will work. It is that way to avoid shenanigans where you temporary disable friends to regain panache.

[blahpers]

Nonlethal damage doesn't reduce hit points, so it won't be sufficient to regain panache.

[thaX]

Good point about being Staggered. Thank you.

As I have pointed out in another thread, Non Lethal damage still effects hp and how long the target can stay up in a fight.

Diego, doing Fight Club to regain Panache would go into Alignment issues and go into PVP type of situation. Unless the GM allows some sparring among friends, that sort of cheese is not a typical valid use of Killing Blow.

This is something that can be talked about with your GM, but a build using Non Lethal damage exclusively might be a hard thing to do with a Swashbuckler even without this particular issue.

[Cevah]

Panache

Quote:

Critical Hit with a Light or One-Handed Piercing Melee Weapon: Each time the swashbuckler confirms a critical hit with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, she regains 1 panache point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler’s character level doesn’t restore panache.

If you crit with non-lethal, you can regain panache.

/cevah