Someone casted Delete spell to erase Drow's existence

[The Raven Black]

I think Oni Shogun talks about Pathfinder Society Scenario #4-14: Shattering Golden Chains which was released in may 2023.

I played it. IIRC the creatures are bound by magic and forced to act against their will.

Not exactly slaves, but rather a kind of mind control.

[Unicore]

I could be wrong in this, but I think the “no slavery themes” is more about systemic, world building elements about slavery as a social or economic institution than about compulsion to do labor. Like there are still a bundle of creepy spells about compelling others to do what the caster wants the target to do, and while the players at my table have said no to those being used except as examples of extreme evil, the magical nature of them makes them something that doesn’t really have very close real world comparisons. A transcontinental slave trade with racialized/ancestry-based hierarchies is something that has very real world comparisons that weren’t worth “playing with” as themes for a game that often takes light-hearted and whimsical tones.

That doesn’t really have much to do with the exclusion of Drow, but is my understanding of what led to the “no slavery” change, which is very different from “we don’t legally feel comfortable telling Drow stories as something that are uniquely ours.”

[TriOmegaZero]

I don't even think it's a 'slavery doesn't exist' thing, just a 'we aren't writing about slavery anymore'. So they have the societal changes to give an in game reason why it's diminished, with major places converting to other forms of servitude, such that it still can be a story element in home campaigns but won't be covered in official adventures.

[Oni Shogun]

James Jacobs wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Oni Shogun wrote:

I dont know if the adventure I did for 2e PFS was early or not. I played it like sometime last year I think? I don't think its that old...so there are adventures with slavery at the forefront?

I haven’t read every single scenario, so I don’t know for certain, but if you remember the title we can look it up. That said, the “no stories centering slavery” decision was a company-wide decision, so it is incredibly unlikely to be a recent story. Maybe a GM with familiar of an NPC’s past drew more attention to that fact than the story itself did?

The decision to no longer do slavery stories was made only a few years ago, so there were indeed some 2nd edition adventures that featured these themes (including the Age of Ashes Adventure Path).

PFS Society Scenario# 3-12: Fury's Toll had slavery. The genie binder Fasiel ibn Sazadin. He bound a genie and forced her to spoil the party. Its not the slavery of in chains and being beaten but its still slavery.

[Oni Shogun]

The Raven Black wrote:

I think Oni Shogun talks about Pathfinder Society Scenario #4-14: Shattering Golden Chains which was released in may 2023.

I played it. IIRC the creatures are bound by magic and forced to act against their will.

Not exactly slaves, but rather a kind of mind control.

Of course its slavery of a sort. I mean even being something like a vampire spawn (to use BG 3) as Asatarion was, is slavery in a way.

[Natural Three]

Virellius wrote:

This does bring a question to mind, however. So many other properties use Dark Elves, purple or grey or even obsidian skinned elves that live in dark places and commit evil acts.

What about Pathfinder's 'drow' made them more subject to it than, say, the druchii from Warhammer? Purple and black armors, massive dark gothic structures, a matriarchal society, a heavy focus on slavery and dark evil magic... is it just the skin tone?

I'm not debating why Paizo needed to remove them. I just wonder why other properties get a pass. Elder Scrolls have dark elves, also, and Final Fantasy 14 has creatures called Mind Flayers (the last patch introduced a furnishing item based on one with their name as well, even). Is it the FORM of media, being a ttrpg, that makes Paizo exceptionally vulnerable?

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I suspect the reason why so many fantasy settings manage to include some form of drow-ish elves without getting in trouble with WOTC is - at least in part - because the idea of subterrenean elves with dark complexion goes all the way back to norse mythology. In the prose edda, døkkálfar (literally "dark elves") are described as elves who live underground and are "blacker than pitch". (Scandinavian folklore is full of supernatural beings that you can't see because they are either shapechangers, live underground, or blend into their surroundings.)

These beings weren't matrialchal, associated with spiders, or evil (at least not until the concept started to overlap with christian demons). Those are all WOTC's ideas, as is using the word "drow" to describe their subterranean elves, but I suppose the mythological dark elves make the border between WOTCs intellectual property and folklore more vague. Especially since there really isn't anything more to go on as far as the mythological dark elves are concerned. They might have been the same beings as dwarves, or possibly some form of deities on par with the aesir. Very few writings remain.

Apart from the name, I'm not sure if Pathfinder's drow violate WOTCs IP simply by filling the same niche of evil purplish cave elves (WOTCs orcs are pretty much lifted straight out of Lord of the Rings and that seems fine), but I'm no lawyer and even if Paizo could make the case that the concept falls under fair use, maybe it's not worth the potential legal troubles. I'm sure they've considered all possibilities and - as has previously been mentioned - Pathfinder's drow really were based on D&D. Maybe that makes it more difficult to argue that they are a separate thing, even after a namechange?

Personally, I won't really miss the drow. To me, they are very strongly associated with the Forgotten Realms, and I find Golarion's elves interesting enough without them. Since Pathfinder elves tend to slowly take on the appearance of their surroundings, I'm actually looking forward to seeing the design of the new cave elves when they are eventually revealed. Stone themed? Fungal? Bioluminescent? So many options. :)

[Kavlor]

I'll support this discussion with the fact that removing Drow actually have lot of sense. The Warhammer analogy in this case is incorrect and cannot be used as a justification for keeping drow in the Pathfinder canon.

Dark elves in DnD are a people with purple skin and white hair who live underground. This is a consequence of divine intervention. They are divided into several city-states, ruled by noble aristocratic houses. The government is matriarchal. The main objects of worship goodess that connected with demons.

The Dark Elves in Warhammer are a people of pale-skinned, dark-haired elves who live on the surface. Power in it belongs to a relatively standard feudal formation, where the monarch is at the top of power. Their separation from the rest of the elves is not biological, but cultural. They worship a cruel pantheon of gods, who, however, are in no way connected with demons.

I think it's obvious which trope the drow in Pathfinder is closer to.

[cosmicdawn]

Having just found out about the drow getting axed out of existence, I bought Heavy is the Crown for myself to read, but also to have my own copy of the moment that one of my most hated things in D&D was gone from Pathfinder forever. ;^) I'm so happy about it that I'm posting here when I've only ever lurked.

Love the concept of subterranean elves facing a harsh underground existence. Hate almost every iteration of it that I've seen, and D&D's in particular grinds my gears, so it was disappointing to see how similar it was in Pathfinder, for the most part. I hope we see something truly cool and distinct, going forward.

With the new Tian Xia book coming out soon, I'll be very happy if we get a deep dive on the elves of Jinin. Given their similar origin to the (not-)drow, remaining on Golarion during Earthfall and heading underground while their kin fled to another planet, I would love to see some more intra-elf conflict regarding ancient disagreements and grudges and hard decisions that moves beyond Biologically Evil Purple Elves.

Very interested to see where this development leads, and more updates to the Darklands too! I've been having a lot of fun catching up on new lore when I can.