Hi,
can someone please shed some light on the order of operations when different modifiers affect an ability?
example 1: I have a hatchet with Thrown 10 ft trait. Then pick up Strong Arm from rogue (+10 ft), and Far Shot from ranger (x2). What is the final range increment?
example 2: Kashrishi with +3 con can hold breath for 8 rounds. Then the character picks up Mental Sustenance (+5 rounds), and then Breath Control (x25).
There are many examples like that (for instance the new shield runes and champion Shield Ally increase, and more), too many for my taste for a generic "Ask Your GM" ad hoc ruling. All I could find on this topic was a general rule on more than one multiplication, but nothing on addition.
I guess I can only agree: I can't find any rules answer.
I would go more conservative way in these cases meaning multiply base values, add bonuses later. But that's just a ruling not a rule.
I agree that there is no rule for this.
I would usually let it go the other way. If someone is going to pay twice for the same thing, let them get as much for it as they can. The only time I wouldn't would be for something that has a really large addition bonus (so something on the scale of: a feat that doubles your reach distance instead of just adding to it, combined with the Extending rune).
Similar question going the other direction involving dividing and reducing.
I haven't found any rule for that and I've always tried to read multiple times such types of feat to find an answer. Overall, as a GM, I'll always go in the player direction if I lack a proper ruling unless something gets obviously out of control. In both your cases, I think no one would bat an eye if it's played to the player's advantage.
Far shot says it doubles the weapons range increment. So for that case I'd personally say Hatchet "thrown 10 ft" becomes 10x2=20 and then strong arm adds to it. A close reading of the specific rules for a feat or ability will often (but not always) yield a specific answer, like this.
For breath control I don't see where it would matter (or why a PC would actively try to pick up both). You're talking about a difference of 205 rounds vs. 325 rounds and no encounter mode scene goes that many rounds where the difference would be in play. Outside of encounter mode the GM shouldn't be counting rounds.
On the champion shield question, I don't have GM Core so can't answer that one. It's maybe a good question to ask the forum. First thing I'd do to try and answer it, though, would be to go look at the specific wording of the rules and try and suss out intent for that case, rather than trying to find a general heuristic. It's a game; different subsystems can/could easily have their own ways of working.
Maybe you are right and I should be so afraid of several feet of range, couple percent of infinity of rounds or already massive hp of shields...
Easl wrote: On the champion shield question, I don't have GM Core so can't answer that one. It's maybe a good question to ask the forum. First thing I'd do to try and answer it, though, would be to go look at the specific wording of the rules and try and suss out intent for that case, rather than trying to find a general heuristic. It's a game; different subsystems can/could easily have their own ways of working. There's also Shield Ally is pre-remaster and shield runes are post-. So they could change the interaction.
Just how now Magical Shorthand and Spellbook Prodigy don't intersect because the latter just gives the former.
Errenor wrote: There's also Shield Ally is pre-remaster and shield runes are post-. So they could change the interaction. Cross fingers that the Player Core 2 Champion's 'Shield Ally' will have a consideration of the new shield runes baked into it.
Finoan wrote: The only time I wouldn't would be for something that has a really large addition bonus (so something on the scale of: a feat that doubles your reach distance instead of just adding to it, combined with the Extending rune). Well, the hatchet example was a simple one, in order to illustrate the query. The example could go far beyond that, grabbing Axe Thrower from lumberjack (another +10 ft), Impossible rune (another x2), and who knows what else. At what point does that fall into the "this is too much" category, even though the build spent 3 feats from 3 different classes or archetypes, and 70k gold on a lvl 20 rune, that all do essentially the same thing :)
simpetar wrote: At what point does that fall into the "this is too much" category, even though the build spent 3 feats from 3 different classes or archetypes, and 70k gold on a lvl 20 rune, that all do essentially the same thing :) Depends on the specifics though, that's the point. There is probably no satisfactory 'one heuristic to rule them all.' In the case of a Lvl 20 ranged martial with the Lumberjack archetype and 70k gold to spend, I'm liable to tell them go ahead and do (X+10)*2 rather than (X*2)+10. Because the rune is called "Impossible" and at level 20 yeah the things you buy for 70k gold *should* be super impressive.
But just because I did that for the Impossible rune+lumberjack doesn't mean I feel bound to use the same math for, say, a level 6 effect for hardness on a shield. In game, there is no reason to demand an arcane rune called "Impossible" works in exactly the same way as a divine favor granted to a Champion by their god. And out of game, from a player or GM perspective, while 'same math' is very psychologically appealing to my type-A personality, it's certainly not necessary for a functioning game system that they work the same.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
As mentioned, there is no "rule" in the game system.
However, the basic algebra precedence is multiplication is performed before addition unless otherwise noted.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I was looking I to this myself today.
In the case of Far Shot and Strong Arm, the former applies to the weapon and is always active, so the comes first. The latter doesn’t apply until you Strike, and so gets added after the former.
That's my take on it anyways.
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