Prerequisites: Kitsune.
Benefit: You gain a new spell-like ability, each usable twice per day, from the following list, in order: disguise self, charm person, misdirection, invisibility, suggestion, displacement, confusion, dominate person. For example, the first time you select this feat, you gain disguise self 2/day; the second time you select this feat, you gain charm person 2/day. Your caster level for these spells is equal to your Hit Dice. The DCs for these abilities are Charisma-based.
Special: You may select this feat up to eight times. Each time you take it, you gain an additional ability as described above.
Does the text in bold mean that the DC is 10+1/2HD+charisma, instead of being based on the usual level of the spell like most SLAs based on spells do?
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Does the text in bold mean that the DC is 10+1/2HD+charisma, instead of being based on the usual level of the spell like most SLAs based on spells do?Prerequisites: Kitsune.
Benefit: You gain a new spell-like ability, each usable twice per day, from the following list, in order: disguise self, charm person, misdirection, invisibility, suggestion, displacement, confusion, dominate person. For example, the first time you select this feat, you gain disguise self 2/day; the second time you select this feat, you gain charm person 2/day. Your caster level for these spells is equal to your Hit Dice. The DCs for these abilities are Charisma-based.
Special: You may select this feat up to eight times. Each time you take it, you gain an additional ability as described above.
It means you use charisma as the key ability to determine the save DC.
as opposed to using intelligence, wisdom, or any other stat
It means you use charisma as the key ability to determine the save DC.
as opposed to using intelligence, wisdom, or any other stat
I’m not completely sure what you are trying to say there, so I have to make some assumptions. Spell-like abilities rely on charisma by default.
The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Charisma modifier.
Was “charisma-based” just reminder text? Normally saying something like “charisma-based” would imply it’s a hit dice based calculation, like how poison DCs are “constitution-based”
And theorize the intention was for the save to be based on HD instead of spell, then how might that have been worded other than saying it is “charisma-based”?
Spell like abilities can still be keyed to other stats besides charisma, e.g. wizard school abilities being keyed off Int, or cleric domains of Wis. Because the ability isn't a class ability that would obviously indicate what stat it keys off of, they clarify you use Cha. But because it's still an SLA and not a Su ability with a save, you use the 10+Spell Level+Cha calculation.
Spell like abilities can still be keyed to other stats besides charisma, e.g. wizard school abilities being keyed off Int, or cleric domains of Wis.
What are some examples of this? Do they use the terminology “intelligence-based” or “wisdom-based”.
I just feel like that is some really coded language but I’m looking for some counter examples
Part of my problem is that I don’t know where that standard is defined. Multiple abilities refer to themselves as being “ability-based” and I know that usually means the hit dice calculation, but where is that defined?
Like Engulf says, “The save DC is Strength-based.” Or Entrap says, “The save DCs are Constitution-based.” Where does it specify what that means?
Int-Based/Cha-Based is generally worded used for monster abilities as its shorter than for gnome where it can say "Gnome Magic: ... The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the gnome’s Charisma modifier." because this is the only time in the book they will have to say it for a potentially new player wanting to play a gnome. For a GM, reading a bestiary, where not only does most every entry have an ability that is based on an ability score that needs to be called out in case that ability gets debuffed, but many of them have multiple abilities based even off of different stats. It is a very nice and easy short-hand they decided to use to indicate which ability score goes into either the Supernatural Ability DC calculation (10+1/2HD+Ability Score) or the SLA calculation (10+Spell Replicated Level+Ability Score).
Just open up most any monster entry in any bestiary and you'll find this language at the bottom of any ability description with a save. The default ability score for SLA's is charisma, and so they don't make an entry for them to say something to the effect of "The creature's SLA's are charisma based" unless it specifically uses another ability score. However, for an ability intended for a PC to use, like the tail feats, they don't assume that the player will know that SLA's default to Cha, so they tell them (even if in this case it was an overreach to assume the player might know what "Charisma based" means).
Part of my problem is that I don’t know where that standard is defined. Multiple abilities refer to themselves as being “ability-based” and I know that usually means the hit dice calculation, but where is that defined?
Like Engulf says, “The save DC is Strength-based.” Or Entrap says, “The save DCs are Constitution-based.” Where does it specify what that means?
To be honest, I don't know where it says this, its just a rule that if you pick at the stat-blocks enough, you can realize yourself. Even reading the Monster Advancement blurb you only get the barest bones of indications that HD is a part of some ability DC calcualations:
Adding Racial Hit Die: Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch. As additional Hit Dice are added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit points, and skills, as well as more feats. It can also include additional spellcasting capability and other powers.
Also being “ability-based” isn’t just a supernatural thing. Engulf is extraordinary and Entrap can be extraordinary or supernatural. There seems to be a more general rule at work for what “ability-based” means. But that could easily be wrong when we find where such a thing is defined.
Also being “ability-based” isn’t just a supernatural thing. Engulf is extraordinary and Entrap can be extraordinary or supernatural. There seems to be a more general rule at work for what “ability-based” means. But that could easily be wrong when we find where such a thing is defined.
That is fair, yes Ex and Su follow the same rule, technically (as far as I can tell) when a SLA doesn't follow the rule of an existing spell you also pull upon the 1/2 HD instead of Spell Level rule, but when the SLA is just straight copying a real spell, it uses that spell's lowest spell level for the highest power caster class that gets the spell (not counting Chained Summoner, we don't talk about that).
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Part of my problem is that I don’t know where that standard is defined. Multiple abilities refer to themselves as being “ability-based” and I know that usually means the hit dice calculation, but where is that defined?
Like Engulf says, “The save DC is Strength-based.” Or Entrap says, “The save DCs are Constitution-based.” Where does it specify what that means?
To be honest, I don't know where it says this, its just a rule that if you pick at the stat-blocks enough, you can realize yourself. Even reading the Monster Advancement blurb you only get the barest bones of indications that HD is a part of some ability DC calcualations:
Adding Racial Hit Die: Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch. As additional Hit Dice are added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit points, and skills, as well as more feats. It can also include additional spellcasting capability and other powers.
FAQs and Bestiary.
Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?
The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
For spell-like abiities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.
Edit 7/15/13: Wording changed match the precedent in the universal monster rules for spell-like abilities.
Edit 9/23/13: Wording updated to clarify racial/type SLAs vs. class SLAs.
posted July 2013 | back to top
Yeah there’s a lot of text about how to do spell based spell-like abilities normally. I’m wondering if “charisma-based” in this feat is meant to be an exception, because I don’t see that term being used for other spell like abilities.
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Yeah there’s a lot of text about how to do spell based spell-like abilities normally. I’m wondering if “charisma-based” in this feat is meant to be an exception, because I don’t see that term being used for other spell like abilities.
As I see it, as the SLA comes from a feat, it is possible for it to have an unusual DC based on a stat different from Charisma, so it is a reminder text.
Paizo hasn't been coherent in its use of the reminder text.
Was “charisma-based” just reminder text? Normally saying something like “charisma-based” would imply it’s a hit dice based calculation, like how poison DCs are “constitution-based”
No, it doesn't imply that. That text means what it says, namely that the charisma modifier is included in DC calculation; it doesn't tell you what else is used. That line is also used in SLA descriptions, and it doesn't make them not use the default as layed down in the monster rules. For example, the Efreeti's Change Size ability has a DC 13 at 10HD, because it uses the spell level + charisma mod.
Likewise, a poison doesn't use 1/2 HD because it says "constitution-based", but rather because the Poison entry in the Universal Monster Rules says so.
So yes, it is reminder text, but it is consistent.
Efreeti is an odd example because it’s not using the actual spell level of the spells. But it is still an example of using that term with spell like abilities.
But there is more than just poison, like engulf and entangle, that uses that terminology and you are assumed to use the hit dice calculation for those too
Efreeti is an odd example because it’s not using the actual spell level of the spells. But it is still an example of using that term with spell like abilities.
But there is more than just poison, like engulf and entangle, that uses that terminology and you are assumed to use the hit dice calculation for those too
Look at Rakshasa, they have detect thoughts as toggled constant SLA with some special rules text but keep the 10+2[Spell level of Detect Thoughts]+Charisma calculation.
Engulf and Entangle etc. are all non-spell abilities, which is why they generally follow the 10+1/2HD+Stat rule. But that rule is separate from the "X based ability" text which just tells you to add which ability score after either Spell Level or 1/2HD.
But there is more than just poison, like engulf and entangle, that uses that terminology and you are assumed to use the hit dice calculation for those too
The default DC for racial exceptional and supernatural abilities is 10+HD+ability mod, because most of these aren't based on an actual spell and thus there is no spell level to use. SLAs use the spell level to make them behave more like casting.
I fail to see the issue. SLAs and Ex/Su abilities behave differently in a lot of ways, why is it so hard to accept that the DC calculation is one of them?
It's somewhat rare to see the "The save DC is Charisma-based." line on SLAs because offensive SLAs are very rare to appear in a creature's "special abilities" section (as those that simply imitate spells are in the "offense" section with no further text), but the line is used if they appear.
The default DC for racial exceptional and supernatural abilities is 10+HD+ability mod, because most of these aren't based on an actual spell and thus there is no spell level to use.
Yes, we all assume that but it doesn’t seem to actually be written anywhere.
I had just never seen “charisma-based” DC used for any other kind of calculation. And I thought it was funny that the example you found was also kind of wonky. The rakshasa example is clean though.
So it’s not like I’m arguing the magical tail uses another calculation. But I do find it interesting that we have a hole in the rules regarding those other DCs. It’s apparently a big unwritten rule.
And I just noticed the rakshasa example isn’t right, because that’s (SU) and it uses the hit dice calculation. There probably is a clean spell-like ability example out there, but that’s more curiosity than anything.
There probably is a clean spell-like ability example out there
A quick search has turned up Wendigo and Animate Hair.
There probably is a clean spell-like ability example out thereA quick search has turned up Wendigo and Animate Hair.
Animate hair would have the same DC under either formula. But I think wendigo checks out.
