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First off that item seems insanely powerful if a little unclear. Do you make a check to avoid fatigue or automatically become fatigued as it say's each extra spell makes you fatigued but you'd only be able to cast one extra before being fatigued.
Secondly I'd say the first thing you need to define is what power level they're fighting. Divine power comes in three basic levels quasi-diety, demigod and Deity.
A deity I'd say no they're beyond mortal magic or the lack of it. Demi-gods and quasi-dieties could possibly be contained like that as the former only has extra power in their home plane while the later is solely mortal magic. They both have CR's unlike gods and can be killed though again demigods have special rules if that happens. At least with the former they'd have their own minions who'd want to rescue them and probably their own precautions against it. They have been around a long time and someoen's probably tried something similar before.
If your going to be looking at CR 17-20 I'd say go with a quasi-diety as they can be any CR while demigods are in the mid-high twenties and have special rules dealing with them including a home plane they generally are reluctant to leave in person. While a quasi-diety is usually in the low to mid twenties (fightable) and limited to largely the same rules as player characters.
3) I'm not entirely sure you can eject yourself in a dead magic plane, specific rule trumping general. Your normal ability to eject people might be countered by the dead magic trait, ask your DM.
4) You can't planeshift into a dead magic plane see below for the dead magic trait. I'd also be careful with the nail of blood as there has been debate with no clarification if the nail of blood mana waste dead magic trait is the same as the planar trait or different. If its the same it works, if its different then the planar trait might function more as anti-magic rather than no magic. That is actively blocking magic like the nail rather than simply not being available to use.
Dead Magic
These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects as if affected by an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, and a spellcaster cannot cast plane shift or another spell to move in or out. The only exceptions to the “no magic” rule are permanent planar portals, which still function normally.
It really depends on what the entity actually is. In Pathfinder Deities do not have stats because players are not supposed to be able to fight them. They can do anything the GM wants them to. Nothing can really hurt them, Magic and other abilities don’t work on them. They are plot devices and the only thing that can affect them are other plot devices.
That being said there are a lot of creatures that are below the level of an actual deity that have worshipers and can grant powers. These creatures have stat blocks and can be affected by things besides plot devices. Even then how to trap it is going to depend on the creature and what rules are being used. A creature built using the Mythic rules might have abilities that allow it to ignore non-mythic spells or abilities.
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It really depends on what the entity actually is. In Pathfinder Deities do not have stats because players are not supposed to be able to fight them. They can do anything the GM wants them to. Nothing can really hurt them, Magic and other abilities don’t work on them. They are plot devices and the only thing that can affect them are other plot devices.
That being said there are a lot of creatures that are below the level of an actual deity that have worshipers and can grant powers. These creatures have stat blocks and can be affected by things besides plot devices. Even then how to trap it is going to depend on the creature and what rules are being used. A creature built using the Mythic rules might have abilities that allow it to ignore non-mythic spells or abilities.
Generally true but I believe the starstone was originally mortal magic and that took out 2 gods and still wasn't entirely stopped.
The Starstone is as much of a plot device as the gods. It had the power to destroy worlds the only reason it did not is that a goddess sacrificed herself to shatter it so only fragments hit. Even the fragments devastated the world for 1,000 years. It has the ability to create gods. That does not sound like mortal magic to me.
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Maybe instead of having your characters be responsible for trapping the enemy themselves, find a powerful ally to do it?
Plot device level power vs plot device level power
Then you don’t have to worry about rules as much, and engage your DM in the process.
Wow, long time no read nor post about Pathfinder. The short version of the story is I have been away for some time and might have a high level group to play some adventures with in the next few months.
Without a whole lot of backstory, could the resident smart people tell me if this idea might work or not or what to look out for, if possible?
Setting: high level combat involving planar travel. What's needed: banishing or trapping a demigod/minor deity level creature before it can destroy a (yet another) realm, or some other good campaign-like reason. I am not privy to its stats or abilities but am trying to figure out a way to trap an entity securely in case we cannot kill it.
What I came up with-
1) PC creates demiplane, greater, and specifies dead magic throughout, making the plane permanent. Does not include a portal (I am not seeing the specified need to travel to said plane in order to create one)
2) Getting the entity to follow the PC to the plane OR plane shifting it there oneself (can't cast while ON the plane but I can't find anything saying you cannot arrive there, just that you're trapped once there without said portal - if necessary perhaps using a Nail of Blood to arrive)
3) Trapping the entity there/leaving by using the same Nail of Blood, or just using a standard action to eject oneself from the plane. As the plane's creator, I don't see why that wouldn't work.
4) Magic used to find the entity or scry @the plane should be useless?
Barring that, including a portal but also requiring a physical key that is taken with you, creature subtype needed to trigger the portal, password or probably other unique-to-plane's-creator type restrictions.
Would this work, assuming the entity doesn't have its own Nail, or specific countermeasures to that mentioned (being able to mimic your subtype, etc.)? I am not that familiar with HL combats of 17th-20th level and haven't accessed all the references so I do not know if there is a "hand wave they are deities so they do what they...
No this wont work.
It's not explicitly stated in the rules, because the rules are primarily player facing, but there are spots if you go looking hard enough (sorry, I don't have specific references to provide because I just don't remember) that deific magic isn't affected by mortal magic. One of the best supports I can provide for this is looking at the spell Anti-magic Field, which isn't the same thing as a Dead Magic plane but is similar in concept. Personally, if I were the GM you would end up with a nasty surprise where the deity has access to all their powers and you have no magic.
Deities are McGuffins. There power limits are whatever the GM decides because there are not many explicit rules around them. Even for demigods.
The only person that can answer what will and won't work authoritatively is your GM. There is nothing in the rule books that will provide a rule that will give you explicit permission to do accomplish your goal.
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The Starstone is as much of a plot device as the gods. It had the power to destroy worlds the only reason it did not is that a goddess sacrificed herself to shatter it so only fragments hit. Even the fragments devastated the world for 1,000 years. It has the ability to create gods. That does not sound like mortal magic to me.
Oh I'm not denying its a McGuffin but it is still the result of mortal magic, the whole second darkness AP involves preventing mortals from repeating the spell as I understand it. Never played that one.
This plan has too many flaws and will not work.
Dead Magic: These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the "no magic" rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.
The dead magic trait acts like the planar trait from the GM’s guide. The bolded section clearly states the only way to move in or out of the plane is with a permanent planar portal.
Magic: Your plane gains the dead magic, enhanced magic, impeded magic, or wild magic planar trait (see Magic Traits, GameMastery Guide 187). If you selected dead magic, you are trapped within your plane unless it has a permanent planar portal (such as the portal feature, below). If you selected enhanced or impeded magic, choose one type of magic to be enhanced or impeded, such as “effects with the fire descriptor or that manipulate fire” or “death spells and spells from the Death or Repose domains.” A plane cannot be enhanced and impeded for the same kinds of spells.
Another problem is that ejecting yourself will not work. The section on the magic trait clearly states you are trapped within the plane unless there is a permanent planar portal. If you can eject yourself, you are not trapped, and that sentence would be pointless.
Portal: Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location must be very familiar to you. This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it).
A permanent planar portal is open from both sides. Which means you cannot create a one-way portal, so the deity can leave.
You cannot use plane shift to travel to the plane because the section from the GM’s guide specifically states you cannot. Plane Shift is normally cast on one plane and allows you to travel to another. The Nail of Blood will not help here because all it does is allow you to cast a spell while in a dead magic zone. Since you are casting the spell on a different plane that is not a dead magic zone it does nothing.
Even if you manage to lure the god to the plane the players are going to be a lot worse off than the deity. Being without magic is probably going to hamper the players more than it will the god. Any deity class entity is going to have incredible abilities even without magic. This is like trying to fight a dragon in an antimagic field. As the saying goes, I am a gargantuan magical creature with claws and fangs, take away the magic and I am still a gargantuan creature with claws and fangs.
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Portal: Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location must be very familiar to you. This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it).A permanent planar portal is open from both sides. Which means you cannot create a one-way portal, so the deity can leave.
You cannot use plane shift to travel to the plane because the section from the GM’s guide specifically states...
Aren't there specific rules in the sections on portals about how they can be triggered by different effects? I vaguely recall them. Its the same thing with the nail and which specific rules takes priority the dead magic rule on not teleporting in or out was made prior to the item nail of blood that has a specific rule allowing magic use when there is no magic. A dead magic plane isn't so much block planeshifting or divination as there is no magic there to allow its use. The nail of blood gives you a battery to use when there is no normal magic around. I can see still not being able to divine or planeshift in as there's no magic there to latch onto but I can also see an argument you can planeshift out with the nail acting as a battery to charge the spell.
Actually, the dead magic trait specifies it does block traveling in and out of the plane. That was shown in the first bolded section of my earlier post.
The Nail also does not allow this as all it does is allow you to cast in a dead magic zone. Since you are probably not in a dead magic zone when you cast Planeshift or any other spell to travel to the plane the Nail has no effect. For example, if you are on Golorain in a location where magic works and you cast Planeshift to travel to a dead magic plane nothing prevents you from casting Planeshift or any other spell, but you still cannot reach the magic dead plane. If you cannot reach the plane from a location that is not a dead magic zone the nail makes no difference. Even if you were in a dead magic zone when you cast the spell it does not matter, the dead magic zone is not preventing the spell form being cast it is preventing you or anyone else from traveling to the plane.
This is like casting a spell when you don’t have a valid target. Charm Person has a target of one humanid creature. If you cast Charm Person in a dead magic zone with the Nail and there are no humanoids in range, it does not allow you to cast the spell on a construct.
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Actually, the dead magic trait specifies it does block traveling in and out of the plane. That was shown in the first bolded section of my earlier post.
The Nail also does not allow this as all it does is allow you to cast in a dead magic zone. Since you are probably not in a dead magic zone when you cast Planeshift or any other spell to travel to the plane the Nail has no effect. For example, if you are on Golorain in a location where magic works and you cast Planeshift to travel to a dead magic plane nothing prevents you from casting Planeshift or any other spell, but you still cannot reach the magic dead plane. If you cannot reach the plane from a location that is not a dead magic zone the nail makes no difference. Even if you were in a dead magic zone when you cast the spell it does not matter, the dead magic zone is not preventing the spell form being cast it is preventing you or anyone else from traveling to the plane.
This is like casting a spell when you don’t have a valid target. Charm Person has a target of one humanid creature. If you cast Charm Person in a dead magic zone with the Nail and there are no humanoids in range, it does not allow you to cast the spell on a construct.
Which is why I said I could see you not being able to plane shift ibnto the plane even with the nail (404 file not found) but I can see you being able to plane shift out. The nail and dead magic both have speicfic rules but the nails one was made later than dead magic and realtes directly to use of magic in a dead magic zone.
Like I said the "can't teleport into or divine" to me reads more like there's no magic there to allow it not an active barrier like a wall of force blocks line of effect.
I think surviving in a magic dead plane with a demi-god is going to be incredibly difficult. A demi-god is probably going to have incredibly physical and mental stats even without magic. They probably also have something the abilities similar to a multiple 20th level characters. In all honesty the lack of magic is probably going to hurt the players worse than the demigod. There was a thread about using an antimagic field on a dragon. The thing that I remember about that thread was someone bringing up the fact that a dragon is a gargantuan magical creature with fangs and claws, take away the magic and they are still a gargantuan creature with fangs and claws, but the wizard is an old man with a stick.
The best way to deal with this situation is with some sort of plot device, not trying to find some way to use the PC’s abilities.
Sheriff Bart, it sounds like you're the GM trying to find a viable way for your PCs to trap this divine being? As the GM, you can just say that your plan will work, if you want it to work. You can even make up certain things to allow it to work if you want to get around some of the reasons in this threat why the plan shouldn't work. Say, the deity has a specific weakness the PCs can exploit or that there's a certain alignment of heavenly bodies allows the plan to work.
But generally, I agree with the others in this thread who have said that mortal PCs can't really significantly affect a deity, minor or otherwise. However, if you want to use your original plan or something similar to it, I would adapt it so that the PCs need to do the luring of the enemy deity, but it has to be another deity who casts the create demiplane spell and any other associated spells. Part of the adventure could be that the PCs need to find a way to talk to a potentially allied divine being who can help. They can also gather the macguffins required for the deity to be able to cast the deific versions of the spells. Or you could just make something else up!
For example, Rovagug is trapped inside Golarion. How that works is very unspecified. Is he inside a demiplane where the portal is in the center of the planet? Is he infused with the planet? Is he slightly plane-shifted, but almost in the same physical space as the planet? Is Golarion actually a hollow cage? Who knows? It doesn't really matter. I think that if you're trapping a deity, this is a great opportunity to come up with some crazy, high-level quasi-explanation like this and not rely on the mechanics of the rules to make it work. Create your own weird rules that work only for this specific situation. And the PCs need to put the pieces for those weird rules together.
Sheriff Bart stated in his second post he was a player, not the GM.
Sheriff Bart stated in his second post he was a player, not the GM.
All that typing... wasted!
Nothing would prevent you from making a demiplane without making it permanent, then making another permanent dead magic plane and linking it to the first plane. Then when the duration of the first plane expires it leaves the other plane totally isolated. You could also do the same thing by making only part of the plane permanent and magic dead.
There are two major flaws with this plan. First and most important is that a deity in Pathfinder can do pretty much anything they want. Whether a deity can escape this is pretty much a GM call. If the entity is not an actual deity this should work. The second part is going to be getting the entity into the second plane. If the entity is an actual deity, they are going to need to figure out how to incapacitate it. It might be easier to trick the entity into going to the plane. Even that is going to be extremely difficult. If the party or at least a character is willing to sacrifice themselves, they might be able to lure the entity onto the plane with their lives as an assurance they are not trying to trap him. If they are on the plane when the link is severed, they might be able to keep the entities attention. But again, if it is a true deity, it still might not work.
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Thanks everyone - enjoying the discussion.
I am not near books right now but I do remember that Greater Create Demiplane allows the creator to determine several things about the plane. That means the creating PC should certainly be able to specify how the portal works and what it takes to activate it, read: including things like a physical key, puzzle (oh YES the puzzles turnabout would be tasty), needing a specific physical quality, etc. The portal is still open from both sides and works, given the proper conditions and there a plenty of precedents for having such safeguards.
There are also several precedents to trapping a powerful entity in a plane. If I knew what the big bad was, of course it would be much easier to describe. But from my guess it has stats, (because there are hints of fighting it sometime) and that means not upper level divine.
I suppose the next question is "what, in the list of mythic abilities would allow the entity to ignore the effects of a dead magic plane?" I don't recall any specifically but I am not the expert, hence my post here. If there aren't any, of course the GM gets to decide but GMs should also reward a good plan, barring any obvious, specific flaw.
As for getting the entity there, well, there's a reason why it might be chasing us anyway so baiting it shouldn't be an issue if things work out.
I don't think there are, there are mythic spells that let you avoid the effects yourself and abilities that ignore non-mythic versions e.g. disease. However I don't think there's a flat ignore non-mythic magic ability.