help me flesh out 2 adventuring duos


Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Hi! This is my very first post. If I'm doing formatting, etc. wrong, please tell me how to fix it.

I'm a newbie to Pf1 coming from 3.5. I like the creative directions 1st ed. Pathfinder has taken, but I'm overwhelmed with all the choices available even after consulting some of the guides. I'm asking for help to make 4 characters to be as powerful as possible within the restrictions and character ideas below. I'm only looking at Paizo products; no 3rd-party, please.

I want to create two separate NPC adventuring duos as acquaintances and non-violent-rivals to the PC's. They represent other people in the adventuring business, so the PC's will encounter them from time to time, and the duos might complete some side-quests that the PC's don't pursue (a.k.a. "you snooze, you lose"). This is intended to give the players a feeling that life goes on for the rest of the world even as their PC's pursue their own quests and goals. The other reason for making these duos acquaintances is so they can be used as ready-made characters for drop-in players.

With half the numbers of the baseline 4-character party, I'm assuming that the adventuring duos have exceptional qualities to enable them to survive. For the first duo, that means near-perfect starting ability scores. For the second duo, I'm thinking that a 30-point buy would be appropriate (and no ability scores below 10). I don't want gestalt, but I think that some amount of "cross-training" would be appropriate, probably through archetypes and VMc and such. For example, some of the things mentioned in https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42moy?heal-skill-non-magic-healer will be used for recovering from injury.

I also want to try the evangelist prestige class from Inner Sea Gods, so both duos will be X5/evangelist 10/X+5 even though that loses any 20th-level capstone of their main class.

The main house rule is that I dislike magic-marts. In general, the NPC's' crafting philosophy will mirror that of the PC's—if the PC's are depending on others to make magic items for them to buy, so will the NPC's, which results in very few makers of magic items. However, the more item creation feats that the PC's take, the more NPC's will choose to become makers of magic items, which increases the availability of magic items for purchase. I don't mind PC's buying the magic items listed in a settlement's stat block, but, beyond that, I mostly consider buying magic items a reward for good gaming/role-playing or extraordinary success on a quest.

The first duo are an emberkin aasimar and a grimspawn tiefling best friends with the Unscathed basic magic trait. Both are neutral good blade adept arcanist VMc magi; I think a guide mentioned that VMc magus was needed to make blade adept work. I think of blade adepts as being like Jedi consulars in that they're willing to swing their trademark weapon but usually rely on their magic. The aasimar is a devotee of Sarenrae (sword bond to scimitar; spell resistance & remove disease variant abilities from Blood of Angels, pg. 19), and the tiefling is a worshipper of Iomedae (sword bond to longsword; spell resistance & see in darkness variant abilities from Blood of Fiends, pp. 16–17; prehensile tail alternate racial trait).

- aasimar - tiefling
Str - 18 - 18
Dex - 16 - 15+2
Con - 14 - 15
Int - 18+2 - 18+2
Wis - 17 - 17–2
Cha - 17+2 - 17
lvl 4 - Cha 20 - Cha 18
lvl 8 - Wis 18 - Wis 16
lvl 12 - Int 21 - Dex 18
lvl 16 - Int 22 - Con 16
lvl 20 - Int 23 - Int 21

Feats - aasimar - tiefling
1 - incredible healer - incredible healer
5 - deific obedience - deific obedience
9 - pathologist - spell penetration
13 - acupuncture specialist - healer's hands
17 - leadership - leadership

Arcanist Exploits (same for both?)
5 - potent magic
7 - metamagic knowledge
11 - greater metamagic knowledge
13 - quick study
15 - dimensional slide
17 - metamixing
19 - school understanding (void)

VMc Magus Arcana (same for both?)
7 - empowered magic
15 - quickened magic
19 - reflection

evangelist 1: which 2 skills?
evangelist 10: spiritual form +4 to which ability?

The second duo are rivals to the first duo, and they trained at a rival school. My thoughts for them are less developed, but they will be neutral worshippers of Gorum and Nethys. Should they use variant multiclassing? Compared to the first duo, is this duo slightly more specialized and slightly less concerned about being multi-role generalists? That could help differentiate between the 2 duos. I have no clue what races this duo should be and what traits they should choose.

I'm thinking the Gorum worshipper should be a primalist steelblood bloodrager with an aberrant bloodline, but one guide suggested that the destined bloodline fit well with steelblood, so I'm not sure which to use. (I don't want to use the arcane bloodline, since my playing group is planning a ifrit bloodrager with it.) With primalist, which bloodline powers should be swapped out, and which rage powers should be swapped in? Because of Gorum, I'm thinking greatsword and spiked full plate.

I'm drawing a blank when it comes to the Nethys worshipper beyond a 9/9 arcane caster. Inner Sea Gods mentions Gorum and Nethys as martial and magical counterparts, so the Nethys worshipper ought to be the arcane complement to the Gorum worshipper. If the Gorum worshipper remains a bloodrager, that means he has a bit of magical ability, so perhaps the Nethys worshipper has little more martial ability than the usual arcane fullcaster? Maybe a tengu with swordtrained, claw attack, or exotic weapon training or maybe one of the races with weapon familiarity?

- Gorumite - Nethysian
Str - 17 - ?
Dex - 14 - ?
Con - 14 - ?
Int - 10 - ?
Wis - 12 - ?
Cha - 14 - ?
lvl 4 - Str 17 - ?
lvl 8 - Str 18 - ?
lvl 12 - Str 19 - ?
lvl 16 - Str 20 - ?
lvl 20 - Con 15 - ?

Feats
(no idea what they should take except for Deific Obedience at 3rd level)

evangelist 1: which 2 skills?
evangelist 10: spiritual form +4 to which ability?


Creating characters to overshadow the players is a bad idea. The PCs are supposed to be the heroes of the story. At best they should be built on the same rules as the PC’s but should be slightly less.


Being individually more powerful than the PCs may cause issues, but creating great teamwork should be fine. With one NPC being a bloodrager, the other could be built to support that. My guess would be either a controller character like a witch, or a healer type like a life oracle.


If I were creating nonviolent rivals to PCs, I think I would favor NPCs specializing in deception. Illusions, enchantments, and social skills would all be eligible.

A bard with a high Bluff bonus tells a lie, or a witch with a Silent Spell metamagic rod casts Unnatural Lust upon a PC meeting with the magistrate, or a sorcerer casts an image of someone the PCs are looking for entering a bazaar, and by the time the PCs realize what just happened, the NPCs are eating their lunch again.


I'm rather dubious about the rival (N)PCs being individually that much more powerful than the PCs. Particularly if a guest player gets to use one of them.

Mini-rant about aasimar:
Also, I'll freely admit that I have a beef with the aasimar species in 3.x and PF. Historically (back in 2e), they had a -4 Con penalty which should have translated to at least a -2 Con penalty in 3.x. Anyone hoping to play an aasimar at my table will likely be disappointed by the house rules nerfs which I've given that species.

Building each pair so that they work well with each other is a good idea. Done well (and with a dash of luck), that can explain why - even with just two party members instead of four - they can complete the side-quests.

And I applaud the idea of having them at all. So many times, a group of players can feel/think that their characters are the only adventurers in the world and that they have all the time in the world to complete quests, etc.


The best way to create a great duo is to build them as a team, not as a pair of high-powered characters. Look for classes with good synergy that make them more efficient when working together instead of being more powerful individually. Two full arcane casters with the same archetype focusing on using weapons have little to no synergy and don’t even work that well.

Blade Adept is a pretty bad archetype and trading away half your feats for one Arcana a small pool and spell strike at 11th level is making it worse. You have two bad saves, low BAB and no class abilities that support each other.

A better choice would be two DEX based inquisitors or Sarenrae taking the Dervish Dance feat and Outflank, Improved Outflank, Paired opportunist, Precise Strike for teamwork feats. Then take Combat Reflexes, Dervish Dance, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Power Attack, and Weapon Finesse for your regular feats. Move into a flanking position (Improved Outflank helps for this.) and you can set off a chain reaction of hits. In Theory you can get AoO equal to the 2 plus the combined DEX bonuses of both characters in addition to your normal attacks. Each attack (including the AoO) takes advantage of the inquisitor's damage boosts like Bane, Greater Bane, Judgement of Destruction, and spells.

The inquisitor is also very good at stealth and deception so avoid a lot of trouble when they need to. They have two good saves and being DEX based boost their reflex saves so they have no real poor save. Get a ring of evasion and once they get Stalwart at 11th level, they take no effect from any spell if they make their save. DEX also boosts their AC, chance to hit and even damage, so they don’t need more than 13 STR.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you all for your comments. This has prompted me to review the rules relevant to your suggestions.

There was concern about (N)PCs having better abilities. One member of my playing group tends to invite others to play a session or two with us (usually to show them what is a role-playing game). Out of game, higher ability scores was intended as a guardrail to prevent an unlucky dice roll or misunderstanding of how the game works from killing a guest player's character without me having to fudge things too obviously.

As NPCs, let's assume the PCs are starting the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP. At various points in the AP, one duo might be encountered in a tavern celebrating a successful conclusion to Murder's Mark adventure, then celebrating their induction into the Pathfinder Society, and later celebrating successful missions for the Pathfinder Society (or even be encountered during missions). When the PCs return Queen Ileosa's brooch in Edge of Anarchy, they might witness Ileosa knighting the other duo for a Great Success in W1 Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale before it's their turn to approach the throne; the duo's new duties explain why both can't be away from Bloodsworn Vale for long, but one of them can be away for "a little while." We then have an in-game explanation for why the duos aren't pursuing the AP but are available for short portions of it when my playing group has a guest player.

Melkiador, would it make any sense to make the bloodrager's partner a shaman? The PDF text for Life Link is identical for both Life mystery and Life spirit, and shamans have many hexes similar to witches. Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex provides additional day-to-day customization for whatever the current challenge might be.

Marcella, I wasn't planning on these two duos eating the players' lunch, but you've given me ideas for a new set of recurring NPCs.... (Cue evil GM laugh.)

Bellona, I'll admit the choice of aasimar was the player in me wanting to play with something more powerful than usual, and it was a little bit of a counterbalance to the consensus that blade adept arcanists are a bad idea.

Mysterious Stranger, I'm not good at synergy, plus I lean towards arcane casters, so I was hoping to make a bad idea somehow work. Your advice is much better. Do you recommend generic inquisitor or an archetype? It looks like Abolisher, Expulsionist, Infiltrator, Oathkeeper, Preacher, Umbral Stalker, and Witch Hunter avoids trading out any abilities that you mentioned.


Bellona wrote:

Also, I'll freely admit that I have a beef with the aasimar species in 3.x and PF. Historically (back in 2e), they had a -4 Con penalty which should have translated to at least a -2 Con penalty in 3.x. Anyone hoping to play an aasimar at my table will likely be disappointed by the house rules nerfs which I've given that species.

Um, I think you have that backwards. They had -2 Con in 2e, which should be -4 in 3.x. Don't get me started on what they did with tieflings.


Bellona wrote:

Also, I'll freely admit that I have a beef with the aasimar species in 3.x and PF. Historically (back in 2e), they had a -4 Con penalty which should have translated to at least a -2 Con penalty in 3.x. Anyone hoping to play an aasimar at my table will likely be disappointed by the house rules nerfs which I've given that species.

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Um, I think you have that backwards. They had -2 Con in 2e, which should be -4 in 3.x. Don't get me started on what they did with tieflings.

Yes, you're quite right there about me getting the ability score adjustments mixed up between the two systems. That'll teach me not to post when I'm tired! :)


The inquisitor is one of the better written classes in the game. The base inquisitor is perfectly functional and the only reason you need an archetype is to make it fit a particular concept. If this is going to be used by a new player I would recommend against any archetype. If the player is reading up on what his character can do having to read multiple different things is going to make it harder. Also lacking abilities, they read about in the basic class section might be confusing.

The inquisitor is a fairly complicated class so might not be the best choice for a new player. Giving a new player something fairly simple without a lot of limited resources to manage is often better than using a complex class. The build I gave relies on using setting up fairly complex game mechanics that a new player will not be aware of and may have difficulty pulling off. If you or another player have to run the character it does not really give them a taste of the game, and they are probably not going to be interested in continuing.

The problem is that your reason for wanting the duo kind of conflict. You want a team of two characters that can handle what an entire group does, but you want to use the characters to give a new player a chance to play. The only way a team is going to have any chance of matching a party of 4 is if they are well written and use incredibly good tactics. I don’t see a way of reconciling those two needs.

If these characters are going to be used by novice players do not make them more powerful than the PC’s. This is not fair to anyone involved. It is likely to cause resentment from the regular players as their characters are upstaged. It is also unfair to the new player as they do not get a chance to experience what actual play is like.

For a new player I would recommend a paladin. Paladins are the toughest class in the game but also have decent offensive abilities. Many of their abilities provide continual benefits so there are less things the new player needs to keep track of. They have enough limited resources that it also gives the player experience in managing those without rendering the character useless when they are gone. The only downside is the chance of losing all the abilities if they fall. Even this gives the player experience in roleplaying so is not a complete negative.

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