https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1190
PFS Standard
Black Powder (Keg)Item 6
Source Guns & Gears pg. 169
Price 50 gp
A keg contains 5,000 doses of black powder and can be detonated in the same way as a horn. As long as the keg is mostly full (at least 4,000 doses remaining) this deals 3d6 fire damage in a 20-foot burst (DC 20 basic Reflex save). Detonating multiple kegs can increase the area, but not the damage, of this effect; detonating a keg and any horns at the same time in an overlapping area also doesn't increase the damage.
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While I've managed to find threads w/ references to what seem to be AP specific hazards/set-pieces, I cannot find the Bulk of this item (or the Horn version) anywhere.
The item is pretty tightly written to avoid shenanigans otherwise, and my little Alchemist needs to make use of every tool they can. If I can fit one in my bag of holding, I ought to be doing that.
Also might give me a chance to make use of Sovereign Glue.
Black Powder has a base Bulk of '-' (negligible). Which means that carrying vast amounts of it will have a Bulk determined by the GM.
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), Bulk isn't just based on weight. So you can't simply multiply it (or other math operations) in order to account for multiple of the same item beyond what the rules themselves specify for multiple light bulk items.
50 Bulk does seem like way too much for a black powder keg. I would rather just use the Estimating Bulk guidelines directly and rule that a keg is an item that can be carried in two hands and so is probably about Bulk 2.
Let's see. An individual dose of Black Powder is obviously negligible bulk. I'd personally go with a Horn being 1 Bulk and a Keg being 10 Bulk. In real life, black powder is fairly heavy with a density of 1.7g per 1 cm3. I'd estimate a small keg to weigh at least 30kg or around 66 lbs.
Maybe 10 Bulk is too high; I was just going with a keg having 10 horns.
I appreciate the input, I wanted to avoid seeding any of yall with any numbers so I didn't quote what I found.
This is some sort of forum gameplay thing I'm not familiar with, but is the only properly relevant (PF2) one I could find.
https://paizo.com/campaigns/v5748p75ivmd9/gameplay&page=77#3822
A black powder keg explodes if it takes any fire damage, inflicting 5d6 fire damage on all creatures in a 20-foot emanation (DC 24 basic Reflex save). It's 2 bulk, if you want to take it with you.
Seems wildly out of line w/ the Alch item, which is fine for a one-off story thing, but not if Alchemists get daily access to them.
Given that, per Guns & Gears, one unit of Infused Reagents creates 10 rounds of black powder ammunition (Munitions Crafter, 1st level Gunslinger feat), an Alchemist who knows the recipe for Black Powder is not creating a keg a day, even at 20th level.
Given that, per Guns & Gears, one unit of Infused Reagents creates 10 rounds of black powder ammunition (Munitions Crafter, 1st level Gunslinger feat), an Alchemist who knows the recipe for Black Powder is not creating a keg a day, even at 20th level.
Hunh, that's an interesting angle to look at it from. Never thought about using the low level formulas and literally pouring them into one vessel.
However, it's not really fitting to the context here.
The task of brewing your example powder is itself of a LvL 0 difficulty.
The idea of advancing one's Advanced Alchemy level is to enable more difficult feats of alchemy, so the idea of a LvL6 difficulty formula to make a full keg of powder with 1 Infused Reagent seems totally fine, and honestly doesn't break much verisimilitude when put next to the Gunslinger's Feat.
Honestly, it might be more ridiculous that a LvL 1 Gunslinger, a Dex Class, can just decide
"Hey, give me a sec, I'ma learn how to extract, deconstruct, and reshape my own quintessence into bombs real quick"
And they can just cram that much Alchemical mastery into one, single Feat. Possibly as a week of retraining. Just, wow.
Honestly kind of insulting, really should not be flavored as using real Alchemy like that. Investigator is at least a full sub-class dedication, and makes sure to reflavor their equivalent as versatile vials.
My point was that a keg, at 5000 doses, would require 500 Infused Reagents to create through Quick Alchemy, so no single Alchemist (or Gunslinger with Munitions Crafter) is creating this in one day, at the rate of 10 doses/Infused Reagent.
Sure, it's possible that some GMs would allow someone playing a 6th level or higher Alchemist to go "1 Infused Reagent = 1 keg of Black Powder", but I wouldn't base a character concept around that. Strictly speaking, per RAW, it's possible, but it's not something I'd bet money on a GM allowing to happen. (And some GMs could make it moot by saying that they're not using Guns & Gears, so this theoretical Alchemist couldn't learn the recipe for Black Powder to begin with.)
Also, per RAW, regular Crafting takes 4 days minimum (although you can spend more time on it), a keg of Black Powder is a level 6 item, and while it has the Consumable Trait, and thus you could create 4 kegs in the space of 4 days, that's, strictly speaking, not the same thing as "every day, here's another keg of Black Powder".
And given that at 6th level, a Wizard can cast 3 Fireballs a day, each of which also do 6d6 (and heighten for even more damage) and probably have a higher Reflex DC, no it's not horribly out of line.
Plus, the Munitions Crafter feat only gives a Gunslinger 1 infused Reagent per level, their Advanced Alchemy level is 1, and doesn't improve without taking another feat, and they can only make ammunition or bombs. It's actually quite limited.
Another interesting tidbit: By RAW, only Gunslingers with Munitions Crafter can make 10 rounds of black powder ammo per batch of infused reagents. Alchemists are stuck at creating 2.
Sure, it's possible that some GMs would allow someone playing a 6th level or higher Alchemist to go "1 Infused Reagent = 1 keg of Black Powder", but I wouldn't base a character concept around that. Strictly speaking, per RAW, it's possible, but it's not something I'd bet money on a GM allowing to happen. (And some GMs could make it moot by saying that they're not using Guns & Gears, so this theoretical Alchemist couldn't learn the recipe for Black Powder to begin with.)
The minor --> lesser --> moderate --> ect kind of progression is all over alchemical items, not sure why the presentation of it being quantifiable in doses bothers you in this way.
An Alchemist can poof pairs of Powered Full Plate armor with their infused reagents each day, not sure why the idea of a black powder keg would be objectionable at all, even my stingier-than-average GM's fine with it.
Also, per RAW, regular Crafting takes 4 days minimum (although you can spend more time on it), a keg of Black Powder is a level 6 item, and while it has the Consumable Trait, and thus you could create 4 kegs in the space of 4 days, that's, strictly speaking, not the same thing as "every day, here's another keg of Black Powder".
Variant rules and GM-buy in Feats like Quick Setup aside, I was clearly talking about daily Infused items. Which yeah, is exactly like "every day, here's another keg of Black Powder."
And given that at 6th level, a Wizard can cast 3 Fireballs a day, each of which also do 6d6 (and heighten for even more damage) and probably have a higher Reflex DC, no it's not horribly out of line.
I was clearly talking about the Forum AP thing, which was 5d6 for 2 Bulk. When bags of holding exist, being able to throw an item (or make a trap out of it) that is nearly as good as a Fireball is actually rather ridiculous.
Plus, the Munitions Crafter feat only gives a Gunslinger 1 infused Reagent per level, their Advanced Alchemy level is 1, and doesn't improve without taking another feat, and they can only make ammunition or bombs. It's actually quite limited.
That's insanely good. The Alch Sciences Investigator only ever gets an Int modifier number of Reagents. And, for 1 more Feat, the Gunslinger gets LvL -3 advanced alchemy. Given how huge the gaps are between bomb tiers, they have access to the same tier of bomb for 1/2 the character levels. Bombs need insane Feat investment to do "good" damage, the bulk of their benefit has always come from the debuffs and effects.
Don't forget only the advanced alchemy for the free dailies is capped. That single Feat gives both training in Crafting, AND the Alchemical Crafting Feat. They can make just about whatever they want the slow way. Talk about value.
That Gunslinger Feat is good enough that any Alch might consider the dip, as throwing prepared bombs has 1/2 the action cost of using Quick Alch.
Even more insulting, is that the dip could be further motivated by Quick Draw, enabling the Alch to finally skip that inferior Feat tax of Quick Bomber.
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And since the Munitions Crafter Feat specifically just refers to them as "infused reagents," and does not rule out the Alchemists 2:1 (or Bomber's 3:1), by RaW, the Alchemist would get 2x Level additional bombs to prepare each day.
As a L8 Chiurgeon, I can only budget 4 or 6 prep bombs per day at most, that's a huge difference.
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Uh.... the only point for an Alchemist to take that Gunslinger feat is to make ammunition more efficiently.
Per the APG (pg. 150, Alchemical Archetypes subsection) "If you gain Infused Reagents from more than one source, you use the highest number of reagents to determine your pool rather than adding them together." An Alchemist doesn't get extra Infused Reagents by dipping into that feat.
And your Advanced Alchemy level always depends on which ability you're using. If you're an Alchemist with that Munitions Crafter feat from dipping into Gunslinger, your Advanced Alchemy level for making ammo is 1, and for making anything through your Alchemist class is your level.
Alchemists who aren't bombers can already make bombs (not as efficiently as a Bomber Alch) with their Advanced Alchemy, without the need for the Gunslinger Archetype and Munitions Crafter Gunslinger feat, and they automatically get training in Crafting and Alchemical Crafting at 1st level from their class.
Uh.... the only point for an Alchemist to take that Gunslinger feat is to make ammunition more efficiently.
Per the APG (pg. 150, Alchemical Archetypes subsection) "If you gain Infused Reagents from more than one source, you use the highest number of reagents to determine your pool rather than adding them together." An Alchemist doesn't get extra Infused Reagents by dipping into that feat.
And your Advanced Alchemy level always depends on which ability you're using. If you're an Alchemist with that Munitions Crafter feat from dipping into Gunslinger, your Advanced Alchemy level for making ammo is 1, and for making anything through your Alchemist class is your level.
Wow, there's an important page I had not seen before. I get that maybe it's easier to notice in a physical book, but that's no excuse.
That really, REALLY ought to be in both the Alchemist Class, and every Dedication/Feat that adds infused reagents.
The fact that the Munitions Crafter Feat does not even have text to invoke the "alchemical archetype rules (see pg __)" is insanity. I can't imagine how many players don't know about them, because there's 0 threads pointing to that page.
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Wooooow. I cannot even find text to point to /invoke that specific "alchemical archetype rules" from the Alchemist Dedication page. wtf, that's downright amateur.
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I wish I was laughing, but the idea that such an important rule is nowhere within the class, dedication, or relevant Feat just shows how much of a capital-J Joke the class is to have been released in that state.
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Alchemists who aren't bombers can already make bombs (not as efficiently as a Bomber Alch) with their Advanced Alchemy, without the need for the Gunslinger Archetype and Munitions Crafter Gunslinger feat, and they automatically get training in Crafting and Alchemical Crafting at 1st level from their class.
The idea of a dedication dip to get some "bomb only" reagents was to remove that burden from your daily budget, freeing up all Alchs to use more fun/niche items. and getting a full +1 reagent per LvL would be a whole lot.
However, that's completely moot / irrelevant with that "infused don't add, you get the highest number" rule.
Well, to be fair, before the APG came out, I don't believe that there was a way to have Infused Reagents from more than one source, as the only way to get them was 1) be an Alchemist, or 2) take the Alchemist dedication, which Alchemists can't take.