# Leap Action and High Jump vs. Long Jump

### Rules Discussion

In looking at discussions about Leaping and Jumping there seems to be a common acceptance that your Leap distance is always (with the exception of specific things like Cloud Jump) limited by your Speed. But the actual Leap Action doesn't say anything about that, nor is it mentioned in the High Jump Activity.

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The Leap basic action is used for High Jump and Long Jump. Leap lets you take a careful, short jump. You can Leap up to 10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You land in the space where your Leap ends (meaning you can typically clear a 5-foot gap if your Speed is between 15 feet and 30 feet, or a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more). If you make a vertical Leap, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface.
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You Stride, then make a vertical Leap and attempt a DC 30 Athletics check to increase the height of your jump. If you didn’t Stride at least 10 feet, you automatically fail your check. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.

Critical Success Increase the maximum vertical distance to 8 feet, or increase the maximum vertical distance to 5 feet and maximum horizontal distance to 10 feet.
Success Increase the maximum vertical distance to 5 feet.
Failure You Leap normally.
Critical Failure You don’t Leap at all, and instead you fall prone in your space.

Only the Long Jump Activity mentions a limit based on your Speed.

Quote:

You Stride, then make a horizontal Leap and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump. The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed.

If you didn’t Stride at least 10 feet, or if you attempt to jump in a different direction than your Stride, you automatically fail your check. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.
Success Increase the maximum horizontal distance you Leap to the desired distance.
Failure You Leap normally.
Critical Failure You Leap normally, but then fall and land prone.

Is it just taken as given that the rule for Long Jump also effects Leap and High Jump? Reading those three rules my initial assumption would be the limitation only applies when using Long Jump since it is specifically included in the rules for Long Jump rather than in the general rules for Leap. But then again it seems kind of weird for say your horizontal Leap to be further than your Long Jump. If you take Dwarf Ancestry, Monk for Crane Stance and Dancing Leaf, Powerful Leap, and Staff Acrobat Dedication, your potential horizontal Leap at Level 4 could be 35ft, while your total Speed would still only be 30ft. It makes sense from a RAI standpoint that you shouldn't be able to do this, but I really don't understand why a rule that is specifically included in the Long Jump Activity applies outside of that activity. Am I missing something?

Leap is capped at 10 feet if your speed is not at least 30 feet, and capped at 15 if your speed is 30 ft or greater. So there is an indirect cap much lower than your actual speed.
Quote:

The Leap basic action is used for High Jump and Long Jump. Leap lets you take a careful, short jump. You can Leap up to 10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet , or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You land in the space where your Leap ends (meaning you can typically clear a 5-foot gap if your Speed is between 15 feet and 30 feet, or a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more). If you make a vertical Leap, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface.

High jump moves only 5 ft horizontal (10 ft on a critical success), so speed doesn't play into this one.

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think you're describing a loophole, although it's unclear if it works.

The intention appears to be that if you want to jump a further distance, you need to Long Jump.

The easiest way to High Jump further than your speed is to get Cloud Jump, which uses Long Jump rules to jump that high. It also clarifies that High Jump too requires more actions spent to jump further.

If you had a 30ft speed, for base 15ft leap, then +5 from crane stance, +5 from powerful leap, +5 from dancing leaf, and +5 from staff acrobat, you're right that it'd bring you up to a 35ft Leap, like you said. You're correct there.

There's nowhere else I can find that specifically caps Leap. It's just the kind of thing that seems to be an unintended result of stacking all these untyped bonuses together. A Long Jump is intended to be the way to jump further than a base Leap action.

Alternatively, the possibility of jumping further than your speed as a concept is, in almost every other situation, only relevant for Long Jump. But Long Jump itself specifies that You can't *Leap* further than your speed, rather than you can't Long Jump further than your speed.

Sometimes rules are placed where they're most likely to be relevant, and then have to be inferred to apply to related things.

Squeeze is an example of this, where one of the first things it tells you is that you probably don't need to Squeeze because moving through most places that your token/mini doesn't fit through is just difficult terrain. But this is not mentioned anywhere else.

Yeah, the problem is almost certainly that these bonuses to leap distance are untyped.

Untyped Bonuses to speed in general is a bit of a problem that I hope the Remaster fixes. Either by adding a type to all of them so that they don't stack when it isn't intended, or by stating that untyped speed bonuses are supposed to be a thing.

The rules for bonuses and penalties indicate that untyped bonuses shouldn't exist.

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Unlike bonuses, penalties can also be untyped

But that is only in the context of check bonuses. It doesn't really say anything about speed bonuses. Even though some of the speed bonuses also have the same type designations that check bonuses do.