Hello all, we are getting ready to run Ironfang. I'll start saying that I am really excited, it looks promising, the reviews are solid and the playstyle is very much what we're looking for. I am the GM and with that, here are some things I am struggling with:
Nimarthas as a nation.
This one just doesnt make much sense to me - I have read Lands of Conflict, and Nimarthas just seems to be a couple hamlets protected by weather and eventual disorganisation of their enemies. Throughout the AP there are none of these reknown Nimarthas guerillas - the rangers are a distant backdrop (which I plan to play up that they got melted by the legion in advance leaving the task up for the PCs). However, there really is not much else to Nimarthas..I find it empty and lacking, both in its charisma and how defined it is and on its plausability.
The towns are non-descript, boring, bland and only distinct in that they NUH! any sense of order. For how used to conflict they are supposed to be, this AP makes this people act and feel like a bunch of plebs to which this is the first time their house gets burnt. It has even been done by monster legions in the employ of Molthune before but everyone is surprised to see a non human attack.
I just dont buy it and neither the AP nor Lands of Conflict make a good act of it. I will of course fill with my own stuff but perhaps I can get some suggestions from you.
Conflict between Nimarthas and Molthune.
Perhaps what I think defines Nimarthas the most, and being so played up just to be not featured at all in this AP is what hurts the setting the most. Again, I dont buy it. I am interested in blending in Molthunian politics and war in all of this, have you got any good refences for it? Not many threads about actual play throughs, though it is a topic often talked about.
I feel that without Molthune, Nimarthas is a non entity.
The Fey woods.
I like how they are portrayed in the early books and whilst I havent read the main plotline into the Dryad yet, I look forward to forshadow a lot more the fey-doings in this forest. Any good resources or anecdotes on this?
I feel that this is perhaps an important part of Nimarthas that only gets a passing note - I plan on playing its influence up.
Monstruous party.
Seems my players want to go with monstruous races, at least half of them strongly non human (goblin, gargoyle variant...). I would have prefered more standard stuff but I promised a frontier sort of game so I guess this is the game for this. Anything that pops to your mind that might not work or work well?
So, what makes Nimarthas for you? How did you run it or give it character? Often heard the Molthune-Nimarthas conflicts described as the Swiss prince states, if so any good resources to get inspired?
PS: I've run Skull and Shackles before. In comparison, Isles of the Shackles, is an AMAZING product that becomes the backbone of the AP and lets you spitball anything the party wants to do. I am strongly disappointed in Lands of Conflict as a product and perhaps more in how "developed" this particular setting is.
How far into the AP have you read? I ask because several complaints seem addressed in later books.
Nimarthas as a nation.
This one just doesnt make much sense to me - I have read Lands of Conflict, and Nimarthas just seems to be a couple hamlets protected by weather and eventual disorganisation of their enemies.
The way I tend to think of Nirmathas is "Libertarian's wet dream." And it more or less manages to make that work... until a highly organized fighting force with magical troops transports rolls up, and suddenly not having an organized command structure to rely on really bites you in the booty.
Throughout the AP there are none of these reknown Nimarthas guerillas - the rangers are a distant backdrop (which I plan to play up that they got melted by the legion in advance leaving the task up for the PCs).
This is basically the plot of book 2-- the Rangers have already been taken out by the legion, thanks largely to the aid of a mercenary dragon and his pet druid. You spend most of the book taking back their forts, rescuing rangers, and reestablishing their hold on the Fangwood. There's even a prestige class if one of your PCs wants to formerly take command.
However, there really is not much else to Nimarthas..I find it empty and lacking, both in its charisma and how defined it is and on its plausability. The towns are non-descript, boring, bland and only distinct in that they NUH! any sense of order.
You're not entirely wrong, but one could make a case that this is a feature, not a bug. Even if Nirmathas had a really rich political tapestry, it wouldn't matter because the game throws you into the wilderness right away. Going simple makes it easy for PCs to imagine it as whatever they picture for a frontier community.
That said, book 3 has a lot of detail about Longshadow that at least makes it possible to do some interesting things in that community, and it is probably the only town the party will ever get to. (Kraggodan aside.)
For how used to conflict they are supposed to be, this AP makes this people act and feel like a bunch of plebs to which this is the first time their house gets burnt.
I actually hear you on this. Lands of Conflict really plays up that survival is a key skill of the Nirmathi, but they do seem like babe's in the wilderness a bit in book 1. One potential solution: stat out some named NPCs, and encourage your players to do the same. Not only does this make your group of refugees feel more fleshed out, but it also means they will probably wind up a diverse skill well that will help them start acing the survival challenges. My group got TOO good at it, and it became difficult to convince them they needed shelter at all. They just really loved faffing about the woods.
It has even been done by monster legions in the employ of Molthune before but everyone is surprised to see a non human attack.
Actually, the key difference there wasn't that it was Hobgoblins instead of humans. It was the Onyx Key. Aubrin mentions that normally they can see invading armies coming from miles away across the planes, giving the town plenty of time to retreat into the Fangwood. Hundreds of troops teleporting into the town square... Not so much.
Conflict between Nimarthas and Molthune.
Perhaps what I think defines Nimarthas the most, and being so played up just to be not featured at all in this AP is what hurts the setting the most. Again, I dont buy it. I am interested in blending in Molthunian politics and war in all of this, have you got any good refences for it? Not many threads about actual play throughs, though it is a topic often talked about.
I feel that without Molthune, Nimarthas is a non entity.
Moltune gets mentioned a decent amount throughout the AP, to be fair. And getting them to ally with you against the legion is one of the major end game goals.
The Fey woods.
The Fey woods.
I like how they are portrayed in the early books and whilst I havent read the main plotline into the Dryad yet, I look forward to forshadow a lot more the fey-doings in this forest. Any good resources or anecdotes on this?
I feel that this is perhaps an important part of Nimarthas that only gets a passing note - I plan on playing its influence up.
The fey presence is pretty heavy in book 2, actually, and it is of course pivotal in book 5. I introduced a Pooka based off the MBMBAM Amelie sketch, and she proved to be a popular mascot for the party. My group definitely has strong opinions about fey at this point.
Monstruous party.
Seems my players want to go with monstruous races, at least half of them strongly non human (goblin, gargoyle variant...). I would have prefered more standard stuff but I promised a frontier sort of game so I guess this is the game for this. Anything that pops to your mind that might not work or work well?
I think as long as there are no hobgoblin PCs you should be fine. A goblin might be pushing it a little but that would just be racism really.
So, what makes Nimarthas for you? How did you run it or give it character? Often heard the Molthune-Nimarthas conflicts described as the Swiss prince states, if so any good resources to get inspired?
PS: I've run Skull and Shackles before. In comparison, Isles of the Shackles, is an AMAZING product that becomes the backbone of the AP and lets you spitball anything the party wants to do. I am strongly disappointed in Lands of Conflict as a product and perhaps more in how "developed" this particular setting is.
Don't focus on Nirmathas as a nation-- it barely is one. Focus on the Fangwood as a big magical forest. I moved a lot of the stuff listed on the Nesmian Plains into the Fangwood for cool events, like that Gnome tripping on his own illusion magic or the Tyrant Jelly's valley. Or use the random encounter table to generate some non-combat events. I had the party duck for cover as a manticore was being chased by a pack of forest drakes. Our ranger just watched a water leaper for a while while trying to befriend it. Throw in some friendly fey that might even join your little ragtag group.
You can apply similar strategies to the Hollow Hills. Have the party travel by interesting landmarks, even if they don't have anything to do with the story. My party enjoyed investigating Pylon rock and marked it for further exploration when they didn't have a pressing danger.
It's a bunch of woods. Think Forest of Sherwood mixed with the fey woods of A Mid-Summer Night's Dream.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just run the adventure and the rest will take care of itself.
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Your players do understand that the adventure is dealing with this invasion? It's not the AP for a bunch of odd-ball self-centered monsters doing monster stuff. You need survivors and heroes. Make this clear to them or you might want to run another adventure.
Your players do understand that the adventure is dealing with this invasion? It's not the AP for a bunch of odd-ball self-centered monsters doing monster stuff. You need survivors and heroes. Make this clear to them or you might want to run another adventure.
Having finished this a bunch of monster PCs sounds awful. Very human-centric land to me.
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Your players do understand that the adventure is dealing with this invasion? It's not the AP for a bunch of odd-ball self-centered monsters doing monster stuff. You need survivors and heroes. Make this clear to them or you might want to run another adventure.Having finished this a bunch of monster PCs sounds awful. Very human-centric land to me.
Elves and half-elves fit in nicely for players who want to draw aggro.
Elves and half-elves fit in nicely for players who want to draw aggro.Your players do understand that the adventure is dealing with this invasion? It's not the AP for a bunch of odd-ball self-centered monsters doing monster stuff. You need survivors and heroes. Make this clear to them or you might want to run another adventure.Having finished this a bunch of monster PCs sounds awful. Very human-centric land to me.
Ha, that is true.
Anyway, maybe I'm confused, what makes monster PCs bad for this? You can ally yourself with a large amount of creatures that would be considered monsters: giants, Fey, plants, dire animals, troglodytes... Most of the refugees are human by default, but there's nothing forcing you to be. Once you flee Phaender race doesn't seem like it would matter much.
Hobgoblins would be awful, and goblins might get some flack by association, but unless someone is playing a morlock or minotaur I am not seeing where the friction will be coming from. Unless the problem is with balance. I dunno how powerful these monstrous races are.
But there's no reason a monster can't be a survivor or a hero. That's just the same character motivation inherent to building any party.
It's all in the motivation, as stated in my first post.
It's all in the motivation, as stated in my first post.
Well then the assumption seems to be that you can't be a monstrous race and still be a survivor and hero. Which doesn't really follow. You can be an odd ball and still be focused on the story at hand. It isn't like the Ironfang Legion really gives you a choice, anyway. This isn't one where you have to answer the call of adventure so much as it kicks you out the door and burns your house down behind you. And you can be motivated just as easily by payback as heroism.
The Player's Guide doesn't discourage less conventional PCs, either. In fact, it outright says:
Fighting back against the Ironfang Legion isn’t limited
to any particular moral outlook. This Adventure Path
provides plenty of motivation for any good- or neutralaligned
adventurers, from protecting unsuspecting
citizens to restoring peace to seizing glory and wealth
as the spoils of battle! While NPCs want their homes
restored and their families protected, they are also willing
to pay for services rendered, motivating both heartfelt
PCs and greedy mercenaries. Even evil adventurers
(with Game Master permission) might enjoy that
same fame and fortune, or see every reason to
take revenge against monsters who wrong them
personally or destroy their property.
And there's a lot of stuff in there about how various weird races might be found in Nirmathas, as well. Many because they are fleeing their past or persecution.
Personally, I think you'll probably have an easier time with PCs who have a good aligned bend, but it is hardly necessary. And being a monstrous race doesn't mean you aren't good aligned. Just make sure they read the player's guide and follow the suggestions on motivation and they should be fine. Ultimately, this is Errant Mercenary's call as GM of course. They have the right to veto if they want to.
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Thank you all for your answers. Any insight and point of view is always welcomed.
So I went with something down the middle - I asked players to be very tied to the setting whilst allowing free race - and I've gotten a good 50/50 mix. And from the "goblin" I believe a magnificent story line is arising, that strongly ties the fay portion of the campaign (which I'm amplifying, thanks for the ideas Capt Morgan).
My players may understand what they are in for, but it is also my job to bring the setting to life by putting down the pieces, which need to be...believable, in the context of the setting. This allows them to pick something they like and become invested in it/the idea. For example, we played Skull and Shackles, extensively as I adore the setting, as such I did expand on it with Isles of the Shackles and personal motivations were easy. Motivations, politics, trade routes. Even with the numerous "problems" that setting has (distances, teleport, magic vs ships, etc) it fit.
Several weeks after reading this AP, it still does not fit. I do not understand Molthune. I do not understand the Ironfang Legion. I do not understand the Dwarves of Kraggodan (though more than the rest). The fay I can get behind, and together with Paizo's realm of the fay campaign setting I can weave something out.
I can fit monstrous characters without problems into the party, afterall like in life, it's just about getting used to things, and as many have pointed out, it's the motivation of the characters that matters. The rest is up to the story to explain and unfold.
I'll review my thoughts a bit here, and perhaps you can guide me with your ideas or your solutions in previous games (if have you ran this AP that'd be valuable to know too):
Molthune
A standing army. Expansionist. Hierarchy, structured, trades with neighbours, wealthy enough to employ professional soldies and mercenary companies (sometimes monstruous ones). Strong faiths. Capable of mantaining a siege on a fortress for long periods, and therefore block trade routes and have good supply lines of their own.
Seems to just need to have Nimarthas, yet...
The Ironfang Legion is about to take Nimarthas. A professional army that is managing to do what they havent in 70 odd years. And they will just stand by and look? Do they think it will be easier to deal with folk that have done that feat in 1 month that they havent in 7 decades agaisnt Men And Women in tights?
This breaks suspesions of disbelief thrice over. It is just absolute poppycock.
So we need to put Molthune presence into this AP. In fact there are some trails sprinkled in book 1 that never get followed, I imagine as they wrote it they steered away from it. These would be Edran and the Molthune Patrol. So as they are so handily placed, we shall use them.
First, they will meet the double crossing agents if they recognise them as such. If they escape they will be recurring. If they are killed, they will provide context of Molthune's intentions.
Then they will meet the patrols, which they can fight or not. This introduces recurring characters that are not spies - but the captains/command chain of the military forces in the border, and our main contact with Molthune.
Molthune's motivations: As Molthune starts to see the Nimarthan lands taken by Hobgoblins and their spy-lines compromised and silent, they become paranoid about what is happening. This prompts them to the following:
- Send more patrols into Nimarthas to obtain information. What little comes back, is worrying. They recognise that there is a new, stronger power in Nimarthas. Their Leading groups will be split between siding with or agaisnt the Ironfang(as countless times in history). If explored, this gives way to a political intrigue that the PCs may or may not want to be involved with.
- The patrols they encounter can be further...encounters. From them, NPCs, and recurring villains/allies. Also, as patrols become cut off from contact from their parent nation, they act by themselves. Meaning some hard Molthune patriots might want to find issue with Nimarthans even under current circumstances. Molthunians vs Molthunians.
- They redouble the effort on the Kraggodan siege, make sure it's tight. More pressure for the PCs to solve that confrontation or avoid it.
- Possibly down later books the PCs must actively stop a treaty between some Molthuni faction and the Ironfang Legion. Perhaps a meeting takes place with Athersi and as the Molthuni return, the PCs must intercept. This they learn from a Molthuni spy that has decided it is better to err on the non-hobgoblin side and inform the PCs.
- Ultimately, allow Molthuni to help or hinder throughout the campaign and in the final combats. A little sober human intrigue in this AP will do good for the players that may get tired of all-too loyal hobgoblins and alien fey minds.
!- Edit: And most importantly for the PCs to find out whether this is part of a Molthuni campaign or its own thing.
These posibilities, whilst never having to played out in Molthune proper, always with tidbits of information through spies and patrols, allow us to tell the story of Molthunian affairs, of what should be a key player in this story of Nimarthan self-preservation.
Most of this is me organising my thoughts as I go, so forgive the style of writing. Some Molthuni talk has been had in these forums before, with some good ideas.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u3i3?How-relevant-is-the-MolthuneNirmathas-wa r-to
I think the closest I will get to understand Nimarthas is to the Swiss rebellions and contextualise the mountain passes and terrain as similar. And totally ignore teleporting, again, because otherwise it dismantles yet another AP easily (there's even a teleporting doesnt work here! in the fey portion of the forest...).
Also, I havent managed anyone to go for Dwarf or Elf of any kind. I think that as we lose characters down the road they can provide a good in for new PCs.
This is way too much overthinking. It will be ok. Just run the adventure.
Yeah, I think the Grognard and I agree on that. And actually, I'll take it a step further: read the adventure. Molthune isn't directly participating in most of the adventure, but they are already at war Kraggodan and eventually the Ironfang Legion as well. Book 6 already has the leaders of Molthune banding together with the Nirmathas to stop the Legion. It really seems like you haven't read that far ahead yet, which makes doing what you're doing perilous. You risk contradicting later assumptions the AP will rely on and writing yourself into a corner.
Go read all 6 books, then decide if you want to alter the story. Just do it fully informed.
I've read the adventure up to book 5, and was about to start book 6. If book 6 has Molthune leaders in it,that is great news thanks! though I'd still like more foreshadowing. I know from other APs we've run that lack of foreshadowing is one of their main issues, and it helps bring the world alive.
I've just been trying to answer myself questions that the players will inevitably ask, and often they are a good opportunity to make something out of them. None of this is coming up soon anyway, there's plenty of time for me to re-read, re-think and change as we proceed.
I agree with you on the general point of foreshadowing. And I think once you have read the entire story, you can really go gangbusters making it your own. I'd also maybe take a look at the early books again. I'm pretty sure they detail the Ironfang Legion slaughtering a bunch of Molthune soldiers as they broke off from the army, which makes Molthune allying with them seem questionable. And there is of course the Legion's framing of Molthune against Kraggodan. This actually serves as the main explanation for what is keeping Molthune occupied. Also, the "Meanwhile, on the front" sidebars also have useful glimpses into the overall political situation.
adjusts her strategy and slows her expansion. In her
estimation, the PCs represent genuine threats now,
given their growing coalition of troops and resources.
With a threat looming, she prefers to reinforce those
territories she has already claimed rather than focus on
growing her borders in the north. Phaendar in particular
receives heavy reinforcements, and the local Ironfang
commander, Scabvistan (father of Scarvinious, the bounty
hunter the PCs confronted in Pathfinder Adventure Path
#115), is tasked with monitoring and sabotaging the PCs’
northern forces. This may be reflected in dispatches the
PCs receive as they venture farther and farther afield,
or, at your discretion, PCs who return to their reclaimed
fortress may have side adventures routing out saboteurs
and informants from among their militia. With this
Adventure Path’s heavy focus on old-school adventure
rather than politics and intrigue, these escapades are left
up to your own imagination.
To the south, the Legion finishes its invasion of the
Nesmian Plains, seizing everything north of the Inkwater
River and turning the Plains’s residents into a labor force
to begin assembling traditional fortresses to help it hold
on to its conquests. It allows Molthune’s military free
passage through its territory to maintain the human
siege on Kraggodan, but the proximity of a massive
hobgoblin army raises more than a few hackles among
the southern nation. Troops—ostensibly reinforcements
to help escalate the siege—begin amassing in defensible
positions along the Inkwater River. As Molthune’s
paranoia drives its troop placement, Azaersi dispatches
her own scout forces behind Molthuni lines well into the
Plains of Molthune, along with onyx shards her armies
will use to surround the outnumbered defenders.
That definitely reads as encouragement to add the sorts of stuff you're interested in. It's just better when it utilizes the existing story elements. For example, the gazetteer for Longshadow mentions they have a Molthuni agent secretly running their underworld and stealing weapons from the armory, who recently pinched their famous Swift Obsidian Great Axe through a blackmail scheme. My party has been recruited to find the missing axe, and while the axe is long gone from Longshadow they may still root out these Molthuni elements. And I plan for the Molthuni leaders to return said axe as a token of good faith during the armistice of book 6.