The class is very focused in Vessel Spell and all this focus spells are all sustained. I will miss too much this feat in higher levels and depending from what we get with its MC archetype we risk that Vessel Spell works better in many other spellcasters specially witches than in this own class.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Witch gets both Cackle and Effortless Concentration, so I'm not going to say that the request is a bad one.
I do note that the big benefit of Effortless Concentration is that you can sustain, cast for two actions, and still have some mobility for moving out of danger.
I also note that Effortless Concentration is a level 16 feat.
I also notice that Sustaining Dance is a level 2 feat that will let you cast a 2-action spell, and then sustain a spell while using Step.
cleric and oracle doesn't have effortless concentration too
is all divine caster doesn't get effortless concentration intentional
not sure how effortless captivation will work after the reprint so there are still some hope
Yes but this class will be pretty hurt without it.
As I said probably Vessel Spell will be accessible by classes that import this via archetype and divine witches and sorcerers in special can be benefited from it more then the main class.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
cleric and oracle doesn't have effortless concentration too
is all divine caster doesn't get effortless concentration intentional
Psychic and Magus don't get it either.
And since Summoner does, it isn't due to the not-quite-full-spellcaster status of Psychic and Magus.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Witch gets both Cackle and Effortless Concentration, so I'm not going to say that the request is a bad one.
I do note that the big benefit of Effortless Concentration is that you can sustain, cast for two actions, and still have some mobility for moving out of danger.
I also note that Effortless Concentration is a level 16 feat.
I also notice that Sustaining Dance is a level 2 feat that will let you cast a 2-action spell, and then sustain a spell while using Step.
Or leap, which in PF2 can easily become 20ft with speed boosts and powerful leap.
I also notice that Sustaining Dance is a level 2 feat that will let you cast a 2-action spell, and then sustain a spell while using Step.
The point is not only to move but also to do other things while you sustain it too.
For example, a Druid will probably can take Embodiment of Battle and effortless sustain it to improve its Battle Forms.
An Animist to do the same will have tu sustain 2 actions (1 to sustain Embodiment of Battle and other to sustain Darkened Forest Form) keeping only one to use.
I tried to push for it during the Psychic Playtest but it didn't work out.
I don't think it is that important in this case, though. Sustaining Dance is amazing and you get it at 2.
A problem with effortless concentration is that it proably would be an autopick, since your one action focus cantrips with sustain are pretty strong. Of course, sustaining dance might also be an autopick.
i do not think they need it but they could a spirit version of it.
i do not think they need it but they could a spirit version of it.
I could see that.
They have a Wandering feat, Apparition Stabilization, that is practically identical to Steady Spellcasting.
I could see having a Wandering feat that duplicates Effortless Concentration and has a prerequisite of having a Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch themed Apparition attuned.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A feat (maybe Wandering) that disperses one of your apparition for one minute to sustain a spell for free once at the start of your turn for the same duration.
The flavor would be that the dispersed apparition is focusing its energies on sustaining the spell so that you don't have to.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What Sustaining Dance doesn't let you do is rock one of the Vessel melee spells to strike and a cast a two action spell at once, and I think that is intentional.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It does seem like an intentional balancing point that you get some of the best sustain effects in the game, and have no way to get free sustain. Otherwise, Channeler late game looks like:
1: Set up the first focus spell, switch, cast the second focus spell
2+: Free action sustain, one action sustain and move, cast regular spells
They'd probably have to nerf the focus spell scaling a bit if that's how they're going to work by the end.
For example, a Druid will probably can take Embodiment of Battle and effortless sustain it to improve its Battle Forms.
To be fair i'm imagining the dedication will NOT grant access to the vessel spells same way Witch Dedication does NOT grant patron hexes only Lesson Hexes.
Now that i say it, giving exactly Witch with the hair and nail feats EoB would be pretty fun but... uhm, no i don't see it happening.
MC Caster archetypes always gives some access to focus spell with no exception specially if your class get some focus (sorry for the pun) in they.
OK you don't get access to all specially the strongest but you always get access to some.
Animists have only lvl 1 focus spells. I'm sure that Animist's focus spells will be accessible via archetype and what probably will be limited is the number of simultaneos apparitions available probably limiting to get only one.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
MC Caster archetypes always gives some access to focus spell with no exception specially if your class get some focus (sorry for the pun) in they.
OK you don't get access to all specially the strongest but you always get access to some.
Witch Archetype does not give you the Hex Cantrips.
Can someone explain to me why Sustaining Dance is a must have? I could see it if it let you stride, but with Attack of Opportunity being fairly uncommon occurrence now, I don't see why this is so great when it still costs you an action.
You are already going to spend the action sustaining. Sustaining Dance lets you also move at least a little bit for free while doing it.
I have played a Witch for quite a while. Sustain + 2 action spell means no movement. Which stings - that is definitely a downside. Especially if the enemies decide to fall back in the face of the attacks from the party (and I need to move closer to keep targets within the 30 foot spellcasting range), a second group arrives and starts attacking from range (and I again need to move closer), or some enemy or other decides to charge through the lines to try and squash the spellcaster (and I need to start moving away).
Even without counting the various feats or other options to get your Leap distance to insane amounts and only looking at a 5-foot step for Sustaining Dance, it is pretty good.
That 5 foot step typically means that the enemy has to spend another action closing the distance again themselves before they can attack again. That means two attacks instead of three for that round. If fighting lower level enemies, that third attack would likely miss, but against level +1 or higher enemies, their third attacks often hit.
That 5 foot distance also means that one of your allies can literally body block by taking over that newly vacated square and make it much more difficult for that enemy to be able to hit you again.
When my Witch gets charged by an enemy, I have to decide to either stand there and take the full brunt of subsequent rounds of attacks, or choose between ending the sustained spell, or not casting a 2 action spell for the next round.
Witch Archetype does not give you the Hex Cantrips.MC Caster archetypes always gives some access to focus spell with no exception specially if your class get some focus (sorry for the pun) in they.
OK you don't get access to all specially the strongest but you always get access to some.
You can get Cackle or Basic Lesson via Basic Witchcraft.
There's no caster MC archetype that don't give you access to some of the class focus spell. May not all them but we always get some. I doubt this will change for Animist specially because without it the archetype will become way worse than other MC spellcasting abilities due the lack of getting something more than normal extra spellcasting feat slots and spells. (including I'm curious if it will give you prepared or spontaneus spellcasting).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I doubt this will change for Animist
I doubt that the devs will allow a +3 status bonus to both attack and damage rolls to be added on top of a Fighter.
I don't know what the Animist Archetype will look like, but I wouldn't get your hopes up for Animist to be the new must-pick Archetype to put onto your martial classes.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can someone explain to me why Sustaining Dance is a must have? I could see it if it let you stride, but with Attack of Opportunity being fairly uncommon occurrence now, I don't see why this is so great when it still costs you an action.You are already going to spend the action sustaining. Sustaining Dance lets you also move at least a little bit for free while doing it.
I have played a Witch for quite a while. Sustain + 2 action spell means no movement. Which stings - that is definitely a downside. Especially if the enemies decide to fall back in the face of the attacks from the party (and I need to move closer to keep targets within the 30 foot spellcasting range), a second group arrives and starts attacking from range (and I again need to move closer), or some enemy or other decides to charge through the lines to try and squash the spellcaster (and I need to start moving away).
Even without counting the various feats or other options to get your Leap distance to insane amounts and only looking at a 5-foot step for Sustaining Dance, it is pretty good.
That 5 foot step typically means that the enemy has to spend another action closing the distance again themselves before they can attack again. That means two attacks instead of three for that round. If fighting lower level enemies, that third attack would likely miss, but against level +1 or higher enemies, their third attacks often hit.
That 5 foot distance also means that one of your allies can literally body block by taking over that newly vacated square and make it much more difficult for that enemy to be able to hit you again.
When my Witch gets charged by an enemy, I have to decide to either stand...
I appreciate the response and that does sound like solid reasoning. I do believe they should add the option of striding, maybe up to half your speed (rounded down) or maybe a flat 15 ft. just so this class doesn't feel pressured in investing in athletics as well as turning into a meme (that being a character that is constantly jumping around) that has very little to do with the actual class.
I doubt this will change for AnimistI doubt that the devs will allow a +3 status bonus to both attack and damage rolls to be added on top of a Fighter.
I don't know what the Animist Archetype will look like, but I wouldn't get your hopes up for Animist to be the new must-pick Archetype to put onto your martial classes.
Honestly probably the designers will nerf or restrict many of these focus spells of Animist because even in single-class they are super-powerful. Most of them really competes with strong spells the uses spell slots. For example Earth’s Bile basically does the double of the damage of an one-action magic missile in a 10 feet burst what makes it best than a magic missile specially if you also get Channeler’s Stance that basically is a Dangerous Sorcery Stance. If we consider that starting in level 4 you get an extra focus spell basically allowing you to use all your actions to cast 3 of them (something that you can do in a single turn if you want but without the stance) and when sustain it you can also move using each of your actions using Sustaining Dance if you want.
So I expect some nerf in theses spells unless the remaster also boost other remaster spell focus.
|
|
I really don't think they should (or plan to) nerf the base class to rein in multiclass poaching. I expect they will make the Animist multiclass way weaker than a lot of people are expecting. The Thaumaturge multiclass is lacking in a ton of the base class's primary abilities (no esoteric lore, practically no weakness triggering and 1 extremely limited and somewhat late implement) but people still take it for scroll thaumaturgy. I expect 1 prepared divine spell slot per level, the breadth feat will grant 1 spontaneous spell slot per spell 2 levels behind your highest divine spell and only access to your apparitions skills and slotted spells. They might not even allow swapping between apparitions and let you only pick 1 or MAYBE another feat to allow swapping. There are still plenty of nifty feats that don't rely on multiple apparitions or their focus spells. Hope for the best, expect the worst, but either way I think it will turn out worthwhile for the right builds.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think that they will nerf it due MC but because they are pretty stronger than any other level 1 focus spell.
Let's do a comparison with a Psychic for example:
I used blasts because its more easier to view that how effective are these focus spells even without any MC.
I fully expect the Animist archetype to give you access to only a single generic apparition with its own unique (and weaker) vessel spell (think the Swashbuckler archetype's Basic Finisher). There's no way they'll allow martial to get their hands on Embodiment of Battle's vessel spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's the same vessel spell being casted 3 times in a row. Nothing prevents you to do this (yet is more efficient to Stance first if you are a Channeler).
Given that the feat exists and would certainly help the Animist, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but that doesn't really address the issue of the class's economy for all 15 levels before you can get that feat. Sustaining Dance is already essential for an Animist who wants to move around even a little bit and Sustain their vessel spell without also sacrificing the power to cast other spells or cantrips (or Strike a bunch of times, in some cases), and shifting into a stance also ends up costing a lot of your turn. Spellshapes are usable if you don't have a vessel spell active, but given how you'll want to have a vessel spell active at all times, opting into a spellshape feat is effectively about building for the worst-case scenario (and with a pool of 3 Focus Points by default past 4th level, it's fairly difficult not to have a vessel spell up in combat even if you're not Sustaining the effect). Even though I personally believe the Animist to be fairly overtuned at the moment, I also feel their average turn in an encounter is overstuffed with things to do, in a way that makes playing the class in an encounter somewhat stifling at all times.
With this in mind, I would like to see many more action compressors for the Animist's Sustain action from early on, and in fact I'd support making Sustaining Dance a 1st-level feat given to the class via an apparition or something. The main caveat, in my opinion, is that currently the vessel spells are so strong that Sustaining them for their specific benefit and doing other stuff on top might be a bit too much. I think it might help things if those spells were reformulated so that they each provided their benefit in the form of a repeatable, one-action effect that also Sustained the spell when you used it: that way, using an action compressor to Sustain a vessel spell would be more a matter of keeping it on without activating its benefits on that turn, instead of gaining the benefit of two or three powerful actions every time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Making the spells significantly worse and then de-facto removing the need to sustain feels like the wrong direction.
High impact vessel spells are important because it's really one of their defining class features (it's the only thing they do innately not tied to slotted spellcasting and central to their whole theme as dilettante characters). A significant cost that you have to manage is then how you allow them to be powerful.
Reducing both just leads to a much more thematically diluted class (and runs the risk of amplifying some existing problems) which is the opposite direction to want to go.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
High impact vessel spells are important because it's really one of their defining class features
I thought the defining class feature was being able to swap out between multiple subclasses every day for immense versatility? What is the truth then: is this class meant to be exceedingly versatile, or exceedingly strong? You can't have both.
Making the spells significantly worse and then de-facto removing the need to sustain feels like the wrong direction.
Agreed, which is why Sustaining the spells should still be an important part of the Animist's gameplay, and why the spells could stand to have quality-of-life improvements made even if they do inevitably receive nerfs (I don't think it's reasonable to expect something like garden of healing to go unchanged). The benefit to action compressors is that the freedom they give you is only partial: Sustaining Dance, for example, lets you move and Sustain, which means you get to do a couple of things at the same time, but only those things. You can't Strike and Sustain on the same action, or Sustain and use a spellshape action on the same action, so there is still a meaningful limitation that allows for those vessel spells to be more powerful than they'd be allowed to be otherwise.
Just as an example, let's go with river carving mountains, which currently isn't a great vessel spell due to its comparatively weaker effect next to alternatives and need to spend an extra action to Stride. The above model I think is one that would benefit the spell greatly, for instance:
River Carving Mountains (1-action)
Uncommon, Animist, Water
Duration: sustained up to 1 minute
Your apparition solidifies around you into roaring water and spraying mist. For the duration of this spell, you have lesser cover against ranged attacks, gain a +5-foot status bonus to your Speeds, and gain the Flow Like Water action listed below. You also Flow Like Water when you Cast this Spell.
Flow Like Water (1-action, water) You Sustain this spell, then Stride up to your Speed while your apparition fills each square you pass through with the lingering energy of a coursing river. These squares become difficult terrain until the start of your next turn. You can Burrow, Climb, Fly, or Swim rather than Stride if you have the corresponding movement type.
---
Would that not feel smoother to use? Would that not be better than the current effect in every way?
The animist gets very close to enough action economy compression with the feats it has, it just doesn't quite do it in the same way as other classes and some don't really work together.
Spiritual spellshape stance is an interesting one that is interesting in how good it is, but how limited it is. With very few vessel spells that it works with, and with a requirement that the spell do damage and that the damage be spirit/vital/void damage, I am guessing the intent here is for this to be a feat (and one of the only ones) that really synergizes well with your prepared divine spells and not your apparition spells. It really works well with Echoing Channel though. Does Spiritual Spell shape stance pair with one action harm/heal casting through possession's Echo to let you cast a free 3rd highest rank heal or harm spell every hour? or do variable action spellshape feats not qualify for Spiritual Spellshape Stance?
Sustaining dance is an obvious one with a really interesting unique twist that is well suited for a class that is really going to be struggling to find actions to move around. It interacts a little strangely with river carving mountains though because the +5 from RCM sometimes will help your leap, and often wont, and then to get anything else out of RCM you have to spend an action moving and then what else can you do? Really just attack with a weapon, but not in a way that can benefit from using any animist spells or feats that help with weapon attacks. And if you do cast or sustain one of those, then you are either just moving around for a turn, or not using one of your spells. Add to that Roaring Heart doesn't work with River Carving Mountains and it feels like RCM is just not designed to work with the Animist class.
Grasping spirit's spell is also a very interesting take on the reach spell that can work as an action economy compressor as well for the animist. Grasping targets that are spread out to pull them together for area affects is an interesting twist on reach or widen. I am curious if anyone has tried it out.