Except Thrash doesn't target, so not RAW IMO.
If you know you're holding something, you can Thrash it around. One might say that implies targeting, but that's RAI (the implied version of RAI, not necessarily the intended version).
Sadly, whether one knows they're holding something circles back to Foil Senses re: touch...This is adjudication territory IMO, and were rigorous rules laid out, they'd likely become too exploitable and/or fall apart given all the size, limbs, and other physiological/magical variance.
Thrash does have a target: your grabbed foe.
A lot of good points
I actually agree with you on all of this and think Concealed should be ignored in these cases, at least until it's reworked. But to answer your question on how I'd rule if I said it applied:
1) You do the Whirling Throw flat check before rolling Athletics. If you don't pass, you don't roll Athletics and just waste the action.
2) Yes, a failed flat check is a miss for the purpose of those feats.
That being said, it'd be nice to have a sidebar that said something like "Unless noted on a creature's statblock, X is a Precise Sense, Y is Imprecise, Z is vague." for Sight/Sound/Smell/Taste/TouchYou might want to check the post and link I quoted 5 posts above yours.
I've read that section, I find it unsuitable mainly for two reasons:
1) As I said, I think Touch is Imprecise, not Vague, especially going by the descriptions the book itself provides. Touch has less range than smell (at least, for those of us who aren't Mr. Fantastic) but it provides a ton more detail than smell or even hearing in most situations.
2) It doesn't provide ranges, which isn't super necessary but it leads to things like a character being able to use Touch to Seek any 30 foot burst within LoS with one action. Of course, since Touch, being Vague (allegedly) can only go Unnoticed->Undetected, it wouldn't do anything according to seek.
Compare to Mutants and Masterminds: http://i.imgur.com/Iw5LIli.jpg
I'm not saying PF2 needs that level of detail, the Perception/Concealment rules just need a bit of polish.
Thrash does target. Everything targets in PF2.Except Thrash doesn't target, so not RAW IMO.
If you know you're holding something, you can Thrash it around. One might say that implies targeting, but that's RAI (the implied version of RAI, not necessarily the intended version).
Sadly, whether one knows they're holding something circles back to Foil Senses re: touch...This is adjudication territory IMO, and were rigorous rules laid out, they'd likely become too exploitable and/or fall apart given all the size, limbs, and other physiological/magical variance.
Everything?
"Some effects require you to choose specific targets."Meaning some do not.
I'd agree Thrash does simply because one might have grabbed two enemies, though technically the specific language is missing. Such persnickety readings get troublesome among PF2's casual phrasings though, but nonetheless it seems there also needs to be a stage where targets get chosen.
That said, I'd still allow Thrash to function fine, much like Hulk would have no issues thrashing Loki even if the god had gone invisible after being grabbed. Same with Whirling Throw, et al.
|
Thrash does target. Everything targets in PF2.Except Thrash doesn't target, so not RAW IMO.
If you know you're holding something, you can Thrash it around. One might say that implies targeting, but that's RAI (the implied version of RAI, not necessarily the intended version).
Sadly, whether one knows they're holding something circles back to Foil Senses re: touch...This is adjudication territory IMO, and were rigorous rules laid out, they'd likely become too exploitable and/or fall apart given all the size, limbs, and other physiological/magical variance.
Everything?
"Some effects require you to choose specific targets."Meaning some do not.
I'd agree Thrash does simply because one might have grabbed two enemies, though technically the specific language is missing. Such persnickety readings get troublesome among PF2's casual phrasings though, but nonetheless it seems there also needs to be a stage where targets get chosen.
That said, I'd still allow Thrash to function fine, much like Hulk would have no issues thrashing Loki even if the god had gone invisible after being grabbed. Same with Whirling Throw, et al.
I would likely allow Loki to make a Deception check and a Stealth check so that Hulk is startled enough by Loki's disappearance that he does not realize he is still grabbing him.
Everything?
Yes. As long as you want to affect anything you need to target it. The only exception is you, you don't have to target yourself.
That said, I'd still allow Thrash to function fine, much like Hulk would have no issues thrashing Loki even if the god had gone invisible after being grabbed. Same with Whirling Throw, et al.
That's the whole point of the discussion and why I say that a lot of people are already considering touch to be a Precise Sense in a lot of cases.