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I was looking for a way to reduce the time to write spells into a spell book and found Cipher Script which is now on my list of very good feats. However it say's "Benefit: Any spell you scribe in your spellbook costs half as much as normal and takes up only half the room it normally would (round all fractions up). It takes you only 10 minutes per spell level to scribe a spell into your spellbook (5 minutes for cantrips). I assume that this refers only to the base spell scribing costs not the costs to get ahold of that spell such as buying a scroll or renting a spellbook. But it just say's the cost is halved and renting spellbooks is 50% spell cost.
So am I right its just the cost for ink that is halved or does this feat actually halve the full cost including purchasing the scroll or renting the spellbook?
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We have two rule sections about that:
- Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook
- Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Only the second section has actual, fixed costs. The first has a price suggestion:
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
The magus and the wizard in my group share spells without asking for compensation. The local wizard that knows the PC only as a troublemaker can refuse to share some spell and ask for 3 times the writing cost or ask for some specific service like: "Bring me the tail of a cockatrice."
Cypher (sic) script isn't a social feat, it is about how you write your spell, so it doesn't change the price required to see and study a spell from another spellcaster spellbook.
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We have two rule sections about that:
- Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook
- Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Only the second section has actual, fixed costs. The first has a price suggestion:
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.The magus and the wizard in my group share spells without asking for compensation. The local wizard that knows the PC only as a troublemaker can refuse to share some spell and ask for 3 times the writing cost or ask for some specific service like: "Bring me the tail of a cockatrice."
Cypher (sic) script isn't a social feat, it is about how you write your spell, so it doesn't change the price required to see and study a spell from another spellcaster spellbook.
That's what I thought but I wasn't sure for rental book which is 50% spell price since you are essentailly renting the book for 1/6th the time you would normally. That is a 4th level spell costs you 160 GP in ink and takes you 4 hours to scribe. If you find someone willing to rent their book it increases 160 x 1.5 = 240. However with this feat you pay 80 GP and only need 40 minutes less than a quarter the time so I could see an argument for the rental being similarly less at 120 gp total price.
this is really a super trivial part of the game. Aside from the cost, the time and space constraints are pretty much ignored in most campaigns. I wouldn't bother with this feat.
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this is really a super trivial part of the game. Aside from the cost, the time and space constraints are pretty much ignored in most campaigns. I wouldn't bother with this feat.
That is true in most campaigns. A feat is too precious to spend it for a bit of space and weight.
Mid to late campaign a spellcaster that uses spellbooks can have several of them (and at least one backup copy hidden somewhere). Most spellcasters aren't that strong, so the solutions are:
- bag of holding/handy haversack;
- some other character carrying the books;
- blessed spellbook;
- Cypher script.
Sure, spending a feat when there are less "costly" solutions isn't ideal, but it has some interesting roleplaying possibilities too. And, I think, your spellbook can't be read without the feat. Again, not really relevant in most campaigns, but in the RL it would be a nice perk.
It may be trivial to you but most of the GM's I've played with enforce the space and cost rules at least. That aside I try to play my characters as if they were real people because in the game world they are and a feat like this would be very tempting to any mid-high level caster.
we long ago got past the mundane keeping track of every ounce etc. we now play with no encumbrance, no spellbooks, etc.
Once PC's get to a certain level it is super easy to transport large amounts of treasure/equipment via portable holes and/or bags of holding. Any actual gear carried on the individual doesn't really matter except in combat, when it's assumed you can do a quick drop on your pack and fight.
Real people in a magical world would buy something that makes carrying stuff easy. Thusly, this feat is just bad.
I've been playing this game for a very long time, and I can't think of any GM that I have ever had who enforced space/weight rules, only cost.
I'm sure the feat doesn't cover the cost of obtaining the spell. It's just for the actual act of scribing. Rather than take the feat, just get a blessed book. It lowers the scribing cost to 0, and holds enough pages to not reasonably worry about hitting a limit.
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I got ninja'd by Melkiador!
Encumbrance and spellbooks are important balance factors. GMs who aren't enforcing weight limits (in groups that aren't tracking weight) are probably giving their players speed and AC bonuses (accidentally). It's annoying to track these things, but the game balance assumes you are.
By the time you get to a level where you are getting concerned about space and weight the Blessed Book is a much better way of solving the problem. It pays for itself in scribing costs for anything above 2nd-level spells.
I actually get a second blessed book when I can comfortably afford it. Copy all of my spells into it and then bury it in a way that's hard to find. Leave a bookplate of recall on it. It's a fairly reliable backup spellbook whenever you really need it.
Btw, my first spellbook is conveniently stored inside my glove of storing.
The funny thing is that I've never even had a GM go after my spellbook before. I'm just that kind of paranoid.
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I actually get a second blessed book when I can comfortably afford it. Copy all of my spells into it and then bury it in a way that's hard to find. Leave a bookplate of recall on it. It's a fairly reliable backup spellbook whenever you really need it.
Btw, my first spellbook is conveniently stored inside my glove of storing.
The funny thing is that I've never even had a GM go after my spellbook before. I'm just that kind of paranoid.
While playing AD&D 1st edition the magical belt with 64 extra-dimensional pouches used by the wizard was destroyed (in that version of the game your gear had to save every time you failed a save). His primary set of spellbooks was lost.
He recovered his reserve set, but before he had the time to copy them he failed another save, and the books with most of the second-level spells and all the third level were destroyed.He completed the adventure without casting any 2nd and 3rd level spell to be able to write what he had memorized in a new spellbook. The character wasn't happy but it was a memorable tale and the player did take it in stride.
:-)
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I actually get a second blessed book when I can comfortably afford it. Copy all of my spells into it and then bury it in a way that's hard to find. Leave a bookplate of recall on it. It's a fairly reliable backup spellbook whenever you really need it.
Btw, my first spellbook is conveniently stored inside my glove of storing.
The funny thing is that I've never even had a GM go after my spellbook before. I'm just that kind of paranoid.
Secluded Grimoire is an awesome spell. Particularly if you have a Blessed Book.
The only time it ever mattered to me was a PFS scenario which was a multi-day race/competition where all competitors were required to start with nothing but the (non-magical) clothes on their backs.
While I completely understand doing away with the tedious accounting that spellbooks require, I don't think many people realize that a 7th-level wizard has likely filled up at least one spellbook. Almost certainly by 9th level. And how much harder having multiple spellbooks makes it in those rare occasions where it matters. Another point in favor of the Blessed Book.
I actually get a second blessed book when I can comfortably afford it. Copy all of my spells into it and then bury it in a way that's hard to find. Leave a bookplate of recall on it. It's a fairly reliable backup spellbook whenever you really need it.
Btw, my first spellbook is conveniently stored inside my glove of storing.
The funny thing is that I've never even had a GM go after my spellbook before. I'm just that kind of paranoid.
While playing AD&D 1st edition the magical belt with 64 extra-dimensional pouches used by the wizard was destroyed (in that version of the game your gear had to save every time you failed a save). His primary set of spellbooks was lost.
He recovered his reserve set, but before he had the time to copy them he failed another save, and the books with most of the second-level spells and all the third level were destroyed.
He completed the adventure without casting any 2nd and 3rd level spell to be able to write what he had memorized in a new spellbook. The character wasn't happy but it was a memorable tale and the player did take it in stride.:-)
that sounds like a GM who was being a jerk
I got ninja'd by Melkiador!
Encumbrance and spellbooks are important balance factors. GMs who aren't enforcing weight limits (in groups that aren't tracking weight) are probably giving their players speed and AC bonuses (accidentally). It's annoying to track these things, but the game balance assumes you are.
By the time you get to a level where you are getting concerned about space and weight the Blessed Book is a much better way of solving the problem. It pays for itself in scribing costs for anything above 2nd-level spells.
they may have been meant as balancing factors, but the reality is, as soon as a party can afford it they buy or make a portable hole and/or a bag of holding. once they can do that, then encumbrance and spell books are a non-issue.
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For 95%+ of players and games, you are right. It isn’t an issue.
Spellbooks (other than cost) are only an issue in the rare case when it matters where your book is, or which book is which.
Encumbrance matters more. It’s especially an issue with min-maxers. More than once in my PFS GM career I took a quick look at a character sheet and said something like “You are slowed to 20’ movement and only get to add +3 of your Dex to your AC. Why? Because your strength of 7 gives you a light load max of 23 pounds. You are wearing a mithral breastplate and a Handy Haversack and wielding a scimitar. That’s 24 pounds without even looking up the weight of the rest of your gear.”
Yes, there are ways around this. Muleback cords, ant haul, etc. But those are measures that you have to take with added cost and added opportunity cost.
Yep, I always enforce encumbrance rules and the like. Can you get around them? Sure, but you're spending time or resources to get around them. Money spent on a bag of holding is money that could be spent on a magic sword, and the shoulders slot for muleback cords is a slot that could be used for a cloak of resistance, etc. If you don't apply the rules, then the character with the high Strength score doesn't get the intended benefit over those who dumped Strength. The same analysis applies for other little things in the game--they require some trade-offs that help balance things out in different ways.
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that sounds like a GM who was being a jerkI actually get a second blessed book when I can comfortably afford it. Copy all of my spells into it and then bury it in a way that's hard to find. Leave a bookplate of recall on it. It's a fairly reliable backup spellbook whenever you really need it.
Btw, my first spellbook is conveniently stored inside my glove of storing.
The funny thing is that I've never even had a GM go after my spellbook before. I'm just that kind of paranoid.
While playing AD&D 1st edition the magical belt with 64 extra-dimensional pouches used by the wizard was destroyed (in that version of the game your gear had to save every time you failed a save). His primary set of spellbooks was lost.
He recovered his reserve set, but before he had the time to copy them he failed another save, and the books with most of the second-level spells and all the third level were destroyed.
He completed the adventure without casting any 2nd and 3rd level spell to be able to write what he had memorized in a new spellbook. The character wasn't happy but it was a memorable tale and the player did take it in stride.:-)
Then you haven't played as long as you claim. In 1st and 2nd editions of AD&D losing gear was a regular event.
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they may have been meant as balancing factors, but the reality is, as soon as a party can afford it they buy or make a portable hole and/or a bag of holding. once they can do that, then encumbrance and spell books are a non-issue.I got ninja'd by Melkiador!
Encumbrance and spellbooks are important balance factors. GMs who aren't enforcing weight limits (in groups that aren't tracking weight) are probably giving their players speed and AC bonuses (accidentally). It's annoying to track these things, but the game balance assumes you are.
By the time you get to a level where you are getting concerned about space and weight the Blessed Book is a much better way of solving the problem. It pays for itself in scribing costs for anything above 2nd-level spells.
To you its a trivial non-issue and you just handwave a hundred new spells into your blessed book but I'm amongst those who not only track but enjoy tracking these things. Its how you make a character feel powerful. The party struggles to defeat a gnoll then after a few levels of hard, drag out fights they encounter a group of gnolls and obliterate them giving them a chance to feel how far they've come and how powerful they are. A low strength character struggles to transport all their gear till they get a bag of holding and they feel their growth in all those items going into the bag. Sure they still need to track how much is in each compartment but they can look at that long list of things they're carrying while still being a light load.
Even putting aside cost to me this feat is worth it on the time. A ninth level spell is 9 hours to copy into your book with this its an hour and a half giving you a lot more time to do other things like copy other spells, have a nice meal, craft part of a magic item or just sleep.
Would I have a blessed book? Sure I might even cast keepsake on it so it can't move more than 10 feet away from me. But I also like the idea of a row of spellbooks so I'll spend the money to buy and scribe spells into the blessed book then in down time I'll spend the ink cost to scribe them again into my grimoires so if I have an apprentice I mostly trust I can give them volume 1 or 2 of the 1st level spells to scribe a few they like before heading off into the world and if they prove to be less trustworthy and steal the book I still have my blessed one to use while i track them down and make an example of them.
Besides when buying rather than finding spells the main cost isn't the ink its the rental or scroll especially for things like stoneskin with expensive components.
Then you haven't played as long as you claim. In 1st and 2nd editions of AD&D losing gear was a regular event.
My first game was in 1982....
and yes, we've lost gear quite a few times. we also quickly learned that those were crappy adventures, and moved away from them, and learned how to prevent gear loss.
The only time encumbrance really matters is during combat, we apply it there, but by 3-4 levels in, your "gear" (tents, rations, ladders, rams, rope, etc.) should all be stored in something, either a bag of holding or portable hole, on a pack animal or wagon, etc. depending on the adventure, and not hindering you during combat.
we only have about 4-5 hours per week of game time. we don't want to waste it with nuance things like tracking what gear is in what pocket, or who is carrying too much. Especially when it's very easy for characters to have simple ways of ignoring these penalties.
call it a prelude to the Automatic level progression rules or the elephant in the room rules, or whatever. Encumbrance is easy to overcome and should be a non-issue for smart players so why waste game time on it.
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Then you haven't played as long as you claim. In 1st and 2nd editions of AD&D losing gear was a regular event.
My first game was in 1982....
and yes, we've lost gear quite a few times. we also quickly learned that those were crappy adventures, and moved away from them, and learned how to prevent gear loss.
The only time encumbrance really matters is during combat, we apply it there, but by 3-4 levels in, your "gear" (tents, rations, ladders, rams, rope, etc.) should all be stored in something, either a bag of holding or portable hole, on a pack animal or wagon, etc. depending on the adventure, and not hindering you during combat.
we only have about 4-5 hours per week of game time. we don't want to waste it with nuance things like tracking what gear is in what pocket, or who is carrying too much. Especially when it's very easy for characters to have simple ways of ignoring these penalties.
call it a prelude to the Automatic level progression rules or the elephant in the room rules, or whatever. Encumbrance is easy to overcome and should be a non-issue for smart players so why waste game time on it.
Because for us dumb players its part of the fun.
I have not lied about my gaming experience, in fact my first game was one I played a level 40 (or something like that) monk/wizard, I had no idea what I was doing but it was the end of an existing campaign. Played a few after that at lower levels. My issue as I said is where I live combined with my work schedule makes it pretty much impossible for me to find or commit to a game. Even play by post is difficult to manage as I don't feel comfortable asking other players to maybe wait a week or more before I can respond to them followed by me posting multiple times in a day. At the time the only GM I could find when I was starting to play loved first edition and refused to run anything else so it was that or don't play. Later I found other GM's but not many and they usually ran other systems like Cthulu. The last game I could play before work before became too much was a society one run at a local card store and that ended because the people running it became too busy. I've not had a chance to play anything in over 10 years now.
However I think I'll leave it here because I'm tired of being insulted. I wont be clicking on this thread again.
Playing online, encumbrance is so easy to keep track of. If you're around an actual table though, with people who aren't great at math, I could see how it wouldn't be worth the trouble.
Of course, "people who aren't great at math" also don't tend to play a lot of Pathfinder.
When you rent a spell book you are not paying by the minute so the cost should not be reduced. Think of it more as renting a movie through pay per view than renting a house. The cost for renting the movie is usually a set price even if the movie is longer. The only time the price is usually higher is if there is more demand for the movie.
I have to agree that I would not value this feat that high. At low levels there are a lot more important feats that are more valuable. By the time your typical caster has some freedom to look at feats there are a lot easier ways to carry gear. The spell Ant Haul last for 2 hours per level so at 8th level lasts for 16 hours. A spell caster with spell book needs 8 hours of rest to regain spells so will usually not be active for more than 16 hours. It is only a first level spells which at that point are starting to become less useful. If your 1st level spell slots are still valuable a pearl of power is only 1,000 gp. I would rather have a +1 to the DC of my spells or a +2-caster level to penetrate spell resistance than lighter books and saving some gold.
The whole "renting" process is a little meta to begin with. You probably aren't checking out a spell pamphlet that only has one spell on it. It's probably a whole book of spells, where you've paid to spend time with one spell in the book. But making it "realistic" just bogs things down too much. The current system works better for a game that just wants you to get on to the real adventure.