I think the bit where the Good-aligned police are paid under the table to brutalize protesting workers and deliver one of them to the gallows would've been tone deaf no matter when it released... but there's no need to pick at old scabs.Agents of Edgewatch had an horrible and unfortunate timing for its release, the tone-deafness wasn't at the time of its conception.From a purely 'meta' perspective, Paizo has been trying to learn lessons from products they release.
((Agents of Edgewatch had HORRIFIC timing with concerns about the conduct of law enforcement, and then some of the tropes the AP covered did not make it any better for most folks as one example.))
Not that different from standard AP stuff if you ask me.
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Don't forget the demonetization of underpaid labor where the one guaranteed to be taken to gallows is just opportunist wannabe warlord taking over the strike her chance to do violence, but the actual strike leader is willing to slit hostages' throats on spot if negotiations are refused
Which book is this from?
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We are drifting a bit from the threads intended purpose. SInce we now know the answer to the question, any other conversations can be spun off into their own threads, but do keep the Community Guidelines in mind.
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Don't forget the demonetization of underpaid labor where the one guaranteed to be taken to gallows is just opportunist wannabe warlord taking over the strike her chance to do violence, but the actual strike leader is willing to slit hostages' throats on spot if negotiations are refusedWhich book is this from?
Same as where the scab comment came from (I thought that was clear from responding to the gallows thing)
Creative Director
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I think the bit where the Good-aligned police are paid under the table to brutalize protesting workers and deliver one of them to the gallows would've been tone deaf no matter when it released... but there's no need to pick at old scabs.Heh, nice.
But having PCs brutalize striking workers, deputized to the state in one way or another, is time-honored Paizo tradition that plays well with its customer base. It comes up at least in Edge of Anarchy (where it was retained in the Anniversary Edition) and Racing to Ruin; and is at least an option in Breaking the Bones of Hell.
Using the phrase "time-honored" is kinda disingenuous in a case like this. Excluding the fact that not every adventure we write is intended to start from the EXACT same baseline of what is and isn't acceptable for a group, or that we often try to build in alternate ways for groups to solve situations in adventures to account for the fact that some tables prefer different play styles than others, we very much do try to constantly adjust and course-correct choices we've made in the past that might be, years or even decades later, not appropriate story elements in the present.
It's a constant process of adjustment and learning, and believe it or not we do listen to feedback from posts like these, and criticism about things we do when we screw up or mis-step is very important.
But that criticism is easier for us to take and accept and use to make ourselves do better when it's presented in a diplomatic way.
I wonder if Arazni will still have the title Red Queen. Perhaps s portfolio of paperwork since she fid a a lot of that back in Geb. :)
I think the bit where the Good-aligned police are paid under the table to brutalize protesting workers and deliver one of them to the gallows would've been tone deaf no matter when it released... but there's no need to pick at old scabs.Heh, nice.
But having PCs brutalize striking workers, deputized to the state in one way or another, is time-honored Paizo tradition that plays well with its customer base. It comes up at least in Edge of Anarchy (where it was retained in the Anniversary Edition) and Racing to Ruin; and is at least an option in Breaking the Bones of Hell.
Using the phrase "time-honored" is kinda disingenuous in a case like this. Excluding the fact that not every adventure we write is intended to start from the EXACT same baseline of what is and isn't acceptable for a group, or that we often try to build in alternate ways for groups to solve situations in adventures to account for the fact that some tables prefer different play styles than others, we very much do try to constantly adjust and course-correct choices we've made in the past that might be, years or even decades later, not appropriate story elements in the present.
It's a constant process of adjustment and learning, and believe it or not we do listen to feedback from posts like these, and criticism about things we do when we screw up or mis-step is very important.
But that criticism is easier for us to take and accept and use to make ourselves do better when it's presented in a diplomatic way.
Kinda why I mentioned that Agents of Edgewatch had an unfortunate timing for its release, but at the same time, APs take a while to make.
And unfortunate timings can happen while starting almost any APs/modules/etc as well.
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Creative Director
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Kinda why I mentioned that Agents of Edgewatch had an unfortunate timing for its release, but at the same time, APs take a while to make.
And unfortunate timings can happen while starting almost any APs/modules/etc as well.
By "take a while," yes they do. I'm currently outlining an Adventure Path for the end of 2025, for example. A lot can happen in nearly 2 years that could cast that adventure's storyline into a different light, but that's the sort of thing you can only learn from in hindsight and keep that in mind going forward.
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So, the art they showed on the stream and what James said definitely makes it seem like Gorum is killed by...
Achaekek during the Prey adventure. The art shown looked like Achaekek was just tearing Gorum in half. Incredibly cool art and I really want to know how this all goes down.
I'm very interested in whether you'll pay off the whole
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I'm sure that some folks will be disappointed by the reasons, but I did do my best to justify things and make it make sense and to set up some potentially VERY interesting places for us to go in the future.
AKA: We explain the way it went down, but in no way do we say "and that's that." There will be repercussions. Some of which might take many real-world years to manifest or become apparent.
I'm sure that some folks will be disappointed by the reasons, but I did do my best to justify things and make it make sense and to set up some potentially VERY interesting places for us to go in the future.
AKA: We explain the way it went down, but in no way do we say "and that's that." There will be repercussions. Some of which might take many real-world years to manifest or become apparent.
Sounds awesome! My partner and I are hooked. The way you were describing the events of Curtain Call sounded like Prey For Death takes place at the same time and we thought it could be a lot of fun to play CC up to the point that PfD happens, switch to the standalone, then finish up CC. I'd GM one and she'd GM the other. Dunno. Sounds fun.
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Sounds awesome! My partner and I are hooked. The way you were describing the events of Curtain Call sounded like Prey For Death takes place at the same time and we thought it could be a lot of fun to play CC up to the point that PfD happens, switch to the standalone, then finish up CC. I'd GM one and she'd GM the other. Dunno. Sounds fun.I'm sure that some folks will be disappointed by the reasons, but I did do my best to justify things and make it make sense and to set up some potentially VERY interesting places for us to go in the future.
AKA: We explain the way it went down, but in no way do we say "and that's that." There will be repercussions. Some of which might take many real-world years to manifest or become apparent.
Prey For Death does indeed take place at the same time as Curtain Call, but Prey For Death is not a short adventure. It covers 4 levels of play, from 14th to 17th, and you might even hit 18th level by the VERY end. That's a sizable side-trip to take in the middle of an ongoing Adventure Path, and I wouldn't suggest doing that.
A better solution I think would be to run them parallel to each other, with the same group but a different GM for each.
Confirmed. Gorum is killed by ** spoiler omitted **
Great Scott!!!
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I'm very interested in whether you'll pay off the whole ** spoiler omitted ** thing, whether that's just a straight up convenient lie or whether circumstances necessitated that changed.
I'm kinda under impression that 3.5 was only source that implied he is unable to and later sources imply he just chooses not to.
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So, the art they showed on the stream and what James said definitely makes it seem like Gorum is killed by...
** spoiler omitted **
:-(
Though I am still very interested in the why and how and the consequences, this visual you described killed some of my hype for it because
I wonder if there will be a new god of civilization. Since the only thing Abadar cares about and focuses on is basically banking and not all the other community aspects of civilization.
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I wonder if there will be a new god of civilization. Since the only thing Abadar cares about and focuses on is basically banking and not all the other community aspects of civilization.
He's also big into building walls/ditches and enforcing fair law. Calling him the banking guy is a fair bit of a reductive take.
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I wonder if there will be a new god of civilization. Since the only thing Abadar cares about and focuses on is basically banking and not all the other community aspects of civilization.He's also big into building walls/ditches and enforcing fair law. Calling him the banking guy is a fair bit of a reductive take.
God of Wall and Street ;-)
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I wonder if there will be a new god of civilization. Since the only thing Abadar cares about and focuses on is basically banking and not all the other community aspects of civilization.He's also big into building walls/ditches and enforcing fair law. Calling him the banking guy is a fair bit of a reductive take.
God of cities and their accoutrements, i.e., burgs, i.e., burgherdom.
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God of cities and their accoutrements, i.e., burgs, i.e., burgherdom.I wonder if there will be a new god of civilization. Since the only thing Abadar cares about and focuses on is basically banking and not all the other community aspects of civilization.He's also big into building walls/ditches and enforcing fair law. Calling him the banking guy is a fair bit of a reductive take.
The Burgher King, if you will. :P
I wonder if there will be a new god of civilization. Since the only thing Abadar cares about and focuses on is basically banking and not all the other community aspects of civilization.He's also big into building walls/ditches and enforcing fair law. Calling him the banking guy is a fair bit of a reductive take.
Someone need to tell that to his worshipers and clergy, because their memo are listed in alphabetical order and tend to stop at Banking.
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So of Abadar, Torag, and Iomedae, I sure hope it's Iomedae who will be safe, but somehow I suspect it will be Torag who will be Safe. He's the head of the Dwarven pantheorn after all.
[tangent] I loved, back in the day, Roger Moore's 'demihuman deities' with figures like Dumathoin, Aerdrie Faenya, Baervan Wildwanderer and Arvoreen the Defender being total favorites. BUT, I also loved the Dragonlance notion that the gods are the gods, known by different names perhaps, by elves, dwarves, gnomes, humans, etc. but that there were no 'elf gods' or 'dwarf gods.'
I feel like Calistria is a perfectly fun god for elves *and* humans, halflings, etc. While Torag seems to have 'dwarf-god' stamped on his metal-clad posterior, and that kinda bores me. I'd rather he be gone entirely, and dwarves, as a people, revere some combination of Abadar and Gorum (with a slight tweak to Gorum to have the crafting of armor and weapons added to their portfolio/domains). Maybe even have one of them swap genders and be a married couple, to stick with the dwarven family of gods theme (or sibs, whatever)...
But, as always, an idea whose time is long past, and perhaps even slightly based on my dislike of asymmetry and jerking against there being two CG, two NG, two LN, two CN, and, all akilter, *three* LG gods in the 'big 20.' The OCD is real! :) [/tangent]
Meanwhile, I'm just like...
"Okay, once we figure who we lose of the Core 20, when do we start sweating bullets for favored non-Core deities?"
'Cause I've got a few of them I'd miss far more than anyone who's left...
Better not be Sivanah, that's all I'm sayin! I still remember dropping Forgotten Realms for years because of the Time of Troubles ganking off my favorite goddess, Lleira, because of some meta-nonsense about 'illusionists aren't a class anymore, so they don't need a god of their own'. What an artificial inorganic way to make an arbitrary setting change.
Sure wouldn't miss Hanspur or Ghlaundar, tho...
*Would* be amused in an evil way if somehow Razmir snuck a successful ascension to (demi)god into the confusion, but, ironically, people in other countries *still think he's faking it.* No respect, I tell ya!
So of Abadar, Torag, and Iomedae, I sure hope it's Iomedae who will be safe, but somehow I suspect it will be Torag who will be Safe. He's the head of the Dwarven pantheorn after all.I feel like Calistria is a perfectly fun god for elves *and* humans, halflings, etc. While Torag seems to have 'dwarf-god' stamped on his metal-clad posterior, and that kinda bores me. I'd rather he be gone entirely, and dwarves, as a people, revere some combination of Abadar and Gorum (with a slight tweak to Gorum to have the crafting of armor and weapons added to their portfolio/domains). Maybe even have one of them swap genders and be a married couple, to stick with the dwarven family of gods theme (or sibs, whatever)...
I've got bad news.
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I've got bad news.So of Abadar, Torag, and Iomedae, I sure hope it's Iomedae who will be safe, but somehow I suspect it will be Torag who will be Safe. He's the head of the Dwarven pantheorn after all.I feel like Calistria is a perfectly fun god for elves *and* humans, halflings, etc. While Torag seems to have 'dwarf-god' stamped on his metal-clad posterior, and that kinda bores me. I'd rather he be gone entirely, and dwarves, as a people, revere some combination of Abadar and Gorum (with a slight tweak to Gorum to have the crafting of armor and weapons added to their portfolio/domains). Maybe even have one of them swap genders and be a married couple, to stick with the dwarven family of gods theme (or sibs, whatever)...
Yeah, like I said, an idea whose time is long past. :)
I have always liked how the different gods of the Inner Sea have wildly different 'origins.' They aren't all one family like the gods of Greece or Egypt. Some were always gods, like Pharasma and Abadar. Some were born to other gods, like Shelyn and Dou-Bral/Zon-Kuthon. Some earned their divinity the 'hard way' from mortal to god, like Nethys or Urgathoa or Irori. Some walked into a giant candy dispenser and BAM became gods, like Iomedae or Norgorber. It's very cool.