So. Rolled up a Kitsune Swashbuckler. I'm new to Pathfinder so I'm using Pathbuilder to work out how she is going to level up. But I'm really confused.
I took Sorcerer Dedication at level 2:
Prerequisites Charisma 14
Choose a bloodline. You become trained in the bloodline’s two skills; for each of these skills in which you were already trained, you become trained in a skill of your choice. You cast spells like a sorcerer. You gain access to the Cast a Spell activity. You gain a spell repertoire with two common cantrips from the spell list associated with your bloodline, from the spells granted by your bloodline, or any other cantrips of that tradition you learn or discover. You’re trained in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your tradition’s spells. Your key spellcasting ability for sorcerer archetype spells is Charisma, and they are sorcerer spells of your bloodline’s tradition. You don’t gain any other abilities from your choice of bloodline.
So I selected Phoenix as my Bloodline:
Bloodline Skills Diplomacy, Nature
Granted Spells cantrip: detect magic, 1st: burning hands, 2nd: see invisibility, 3rd: fireball, 4th: remove curse, 5th: breath of life, 6th: disintegrate, 7th: contingency, 8th: moment of renewal, 9th: meteor swarm
Bloodline Spells initial: rejuvenating flames, advanced: shroud of flame, greater: cleansing flames
Blood Magic The primal fire of life and death flows through you or one target. Choose to have either you or a target of the spell gain temporary Hit Points equal to the spell's level for 1 round, or to have a target of the spell take fire damage equal to the spell's level (if the spell already deals initial fire damage, combine this with the spell's initial damage before determining weaknesses and resistances).
But when I set Pathbuilder to show the character at higher levels, none of these spells are listed as available.
So at Level 4 as a class Feat I took Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting.
This lets me pick from a huge number of spells, not just the ones listed under Sorcerer Dedication.
What am I doing wrong?
|
you’re doing nothing wrong. There is some confusion about spellcasting and how archetype casting differs to the main class.
When you take the archetype, you choose 2 cantrips. Those can be cantrips from the spell list of your bloodline, primal for Phoenix, or the detect magic cantrip granted free to full class sorcerers, or any other cantrips your GM chooses to let you pick from. Detect Magic is on the Primal list already so this doesn’t help you much and you just have free choice of two cantrips on the primal list.
If you were a full sorcerer, when you gain a new spell level, i.e. at 3rd level when you can cast 2nd spells, you would also get a bloodline spell added to your repetoire, Detect Invisibility for a Phoenix sorcerer’s 2nd level spell.
However, as an archetype Sorcerer, you do not gain these bloodline spells automatically. When you get a new spell, you can choose a spell from the primal spell list or a bloodline spell of the same level, so when you selected Basic Spellcasting, Pathbuilder has given you all your choices, i.e. those from the Primal spell list and the bloodline spell of the appropriate level, which is why your choice is wider than just the bloodline spells. Those are thematic choices, which is why they’re given for free to full sorcerers, but you have very limited space available in your repetoire as an archetype sorcerer so may wish to go for something else.
With Sorcerer Dedication and Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, at 4th class level you will only be able to cast two cantrips (at will) and one 1st-level spell per day.
At 6th class level, you will also be able to cast a single 2nd-level spell per day.
At 8th class level, you will also be able to cast a single 3rd-level spell per day.
Since you are not a full sorcerer, but a multiclass sorcerer, you will not gain any additional spells unless you spend more feats.
So at Level 4 as a class Feat I took Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting.
This lets me pick from a huge number of spells, not just the ones listed under Sorcerer Dedication.
The Archetype Spellcasting feats are needed in order to give spell slots to the character.
For spontaneous casters like Sorcerer those spell slots get to be picked during level up, but are harder to change what they are. They can be changed when leveling up and learning new spells, or from a week of downtime doing Retraining.
Also to note, Sorcerer is not limited to only casting those Bloodline spells from their spell slots. The base class Sorcerer character will always have those spells from that short list (one at each level) in their Repertoire, but they will have free selection of the other spell Repertoire slots.
Sorcerer Archetype doesn't grant the Bloodline spell slot spells. All of the spell slots that you get from the archetype spellcasting feats are freely chosen from the tradition list.
Pathbuilder should be setting the tradition filter for the spells available to select by default. So for Phoenix Bloodline, that should be the primal list. It is possible to change that tradition in the filter options of the app. That is so that things like Cleric's Domain spells known and houserules giving a spell on a different tradition will be possible to make work in the app.
Since you are not a full sorcerer, but a multiclass sorcerer, you will not gain any additional spells unless you spend more feats.
How do I spend more feats? How do I get Pathbuilder to let me select more feats? I've been up and down the menus and can't figure it out.
However, as an archetype Sorcerer, you do not gain these bloodline spells automatically. When you get a new spell, you can choose a spell from the primal spell list or a bloodline spell of the same level, so when you selected Basic Spellcasting, Pathbuilder has given you all your choices, i.e. those from the Primal spell list and the bloodline spell of the appropriate level, which is why your choice is wider than just the bloodline spells. Those are thematic choices, which is why they’re given for free to full sorcerers, but you have very limited space available in your repetoire as an archetype sorcerer so may wish to go for something else.
I am still confused. If I do not take Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting then I get no spells to select from at all.
I don't want to take it if I don't have to. I want a few fire-based spells, but I don't want to spend skills and feats more than once to get the same access to this magic.
OK. Maybe we should go over the basic concepts of building a character without Pathbuilder.
At level 1 all characters will get an Ancestry, a Background, and a Class. They will get to pick ability boosts to put into the six basic abilities. They will get various proficiencies in weapons, armor, skills, and other such things.
Then they will be given a few things to choose from at level 1. For a lot of classes, there is a subclass that needs to be picked - for Swashbuckler specifically, this is the Style choice (such as Fencer or Wit). They will also get an Ancestry feat slot that they will 'spend' on one of the level 1 Ancestry feats for their Ancestry. Some classes (including Swashbuckler) will be given a Class feat slot that they will also 'spend' on a level 1 class feat.
At level 2, all classes will get a Class feat slot. They will be able to spend that feat slot on one of their level 1 or level 2 class feats, or one of the Archetype Dedication feats that they qualify for.
So for your Swashbuckler, you made the choice to spend your level 2 feat slot on Sorcerer Dedication. That will only give you two cantrips and a skill boost.
When your character reaches level 4, you get another Class feat slot. You can again choose to spend this slot on one of your Swashbuckler feats up to level 4, or you can choose one of the level 4 Sorcerer Archetype feats such as Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting. Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting will give you one spell slot and one Repertoire slot. You fill the Repertoire with a particular spell, and you can use the spell slot to cast that spell once per day. As you gain more levels, you will get a couple more spell slots - one level 2 spell slot, and one level 3 spell slot. But that is all. You won't ever get any more Sorcerer spell slots from Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting.
If you want more spell slots than that, you have to spend one of your higher level feats on Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, and eventually Master Sorcerer Spellcasting. You can also gain more slots of the same levels with Bloodline Breadth.
That is how you spend feats to get more spellcasting. By selecting those feats at higher level.
Another thing to note is that you will need to increase your skill proficiency in the appropriate spellcasting tradition skill (in the case of Phoenix Bloodline Sorcerer, that would be Nature) in order to qualify for those improved spellcasting feats.
The Pathbuilder app will let you pick feats for levels that your character is not set to. It gives you a message that 'your character is below this level', but it is easy to miss seeing that. If you pick Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting for your level 12 feat, but don't see any new spell slots, that is probably because your character is still set to be below level 12. Either that or if the feat is in red text, that means that you are trying to put it into a lower level feat slot or you don't have the skill proficiency in Nature needed to qualify for the feat.
As a quick example:
At level 2 your Swashbuckler can spend their class feat on Sorcerer Dedication. They can then choose Produce Flame and Stabilize as the two cantrips known.
At level 4 you can choose Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting for their level 4 class feat and they will get one repertoire slot. You could choose Burning Hands for this spell slot, but you are not required to. You could also choose to learn Protector Tree, or any of the other common Level 1 spells that you have access to. And you will have one spell slot that you can use to cast this spell chosen.
At level 6 and without any additional feats needed, Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting will give you a level 2 repertoire slot, which can be filled with a chosen spell just like you did for your level 1 repertoire slot. You will also get one spell slot to cast this spell with.
At level 8, Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting will give you a level 3 repertoire slot and spell slot which will work the same as the level 1 and level 2 spell slots that you already have.
If you want, you can also spend your level 8 class feat on Bloodline Breadth. If you do so, then it will give you a second level 1 repertoire slot and spell slot. You would then fill that repertoire slot with a level 1 spell.
Your spellcasting will not increase beyond this point without additional cost.
At level 12 if you have Master proficiency in Nature, you will be able to spend your level 12 class feat on Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting. This will give you a level 4 repertoire slot. If you have Bloodline Breadth and since you have a level 4 spell slot, that means that you will get a second level 2 repertoire slot as well.
And this pattern continues. Expert Spellcasting will give level 4, 5 and 6 spell slots, and Master Spellcasting will give level 7 and 8 spell slots.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At level 12 if you have Master proficiency in Nature, you will be able to spend your level 12 class feat on Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting.
THERE is it is!
I needed to put more proficiency in Nature. It wasn't allowing me to select Expert Sorcerer until I did that. I had no idea that was a requirement.
Thank you so very much.
...If you want more spell slots than that, you have to spend one of your higher level feats on Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, and eventually Master Sorcerer Spellcasting. You can also gain more slots of the same...
This was really helpful. It was my proficency level in Nature being too low that had me locked out of choosing Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting.
Now I have hard choices to make. I'd wanted to bump up acrobatics and performance proficiencies, but that will be really difficult if I'm focusing on Nature.
Your suggestion about Bloodline Breadth is really good too. The lower level fire spells fit my concept better than higher level ones do. So maybe I'll not bump up Nature proficiency so much to get Expert Sorcerer and go that route instead.
THANK YOU for your help!
Since you are not a full sorcerer, but a multiclass sorcerer, you will not gain any additional spells unless you spend more feats.How do I spend more feats? How do I get Pathbuilder to let me select more feats? I've been up and down the menus and can't figure it out.
First, are you using the phone app or the desktop website? The layouts differ, and knowing which one you're using will better allow us to help you.
Generally though, you simply scroll down the screen (for phone) or leftmost sidebar (website) and click the buttons marked "Ancestry/Class/Skill Feat." Then you choose from the available list. You do no meet the requirements for those shown in red.
If the effects of the chosen feats do not seem to be getting applied, you might be too low level. Go to the "About" tab and select "Set Level." Choose a level high enough to support your chosen feat. The software should automatically adjust your hit points, saves, and other statistics to match your new level.
You will still need to fill out any skills, feats, and other "make a choice" options, however.
I hope that helps.
...If you want more spell slots than that, you have to spend one of your higher level feats on Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, and eventually Master Sorcerer Spellcasting. You can also gain more slots of the same...This was really helpful. It was my proficency level in Nature being too low that had me locked out of choosing Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting.
Now I have hard choices to make. I'd wanted to bump up acrobatics and performance proficiencies, but that will be really difficult if I'm focusing on Nature.
Your suggestion about Bloodline Breadth is really good too. The lower level fire spells fit my concept better than higher level ones do. So maybe I'll not bump up Nature proficiency so much to get Expert Sorcerer and go that route instead.
THANK YOU for your help!
You're generally going to have a hard time getting your offensive spell casting "competitive" on a martial character. Your charisma, proficiency, and spell levels will all lag behind a proper spellcaster. (Who in turn lag behind martials for attack rolls because they don't get an item bonus.) Swashbucklers are also more difficult class to use which basically require increasing your panache skills, so you're going to have a bad time if you're not careful. (Honestly, I don't recommend the Swashbuckler for new players at all, but I won't try and talk you out of it.)
But you have a few options that can help:
1. Rely on fox fire as your signature fire attack. It will cost less actions than produce flames and use your dexterity and higher attack modifier. Not that this should be a back up ranged option. The Swashbuckler class features (like Precise Strike) require you to use melee attacks. But you can use the kitsune bite attack for this, and use the same item (handwraps) to boost both attacks.
2. Use defensive or utility spells. Rage of the Elements has a lot of options for fire themed primal spells which don't just launch attacks. For example, there is a cantrip which lets you absorb some fire damage and turn it into a cloud of smoke you can use for concealment.
3. Consider the kineticist. For multiclass you'll still need to spend feats to improve your offensive scaling but it won't require you waste precious skill boosts, and there are cool utility impulses too to avoid making further investment. Or consider going full classed. There are some exciting dynamic movement options that can get you that acrobatic vibe, like using a jet of flame to propel yourself across the battle field or up into the air. If you want your main schtick to be throwing fire, this is really the best option.
3. Consider the kineticist. For multiclass you'll still need to spend feats to improve your offensive scaling but it won't require you waste precious skill boosts, and there are cool utility impulses too to avoid making further investment. Or consider going full classed. There are some exciting dynamic movement options that can get you that acrobatic vibe, like using a jet of flame to propel yourself across the battle field or up into the air. If you want your main schtick to be throwing fire, this is really the best option.
OK, is Kineticist something I can do in addition to being a swashbuckler?
Where do I find this (using Pathbuilder on my PC)?
It will probably be a little while before Kineticist becomes available on Pathbuilder. A month or two maybe.
It's available from yesterday
It is. Not quite everything from Rage of Elements yet - most of the equipment is missing. But the Kineticist class is available.
I had to update the app on my phone manually. I'm sure that the phone would have gotten around to it eventually...
It will probably be a little while before Kineticist becomes available on Pathbuilder. A month or two maybe.It's available from yesterday
Oh. Well, that's cool.
Oh. Well, that's cool.It will probably be a little while before Kineticist becomes available on Pathbuilder. A month or two maybe.It's available from yesterday
Pathbuilder and other "partners" like Archive of Nethys get early copies so they can have the content ready to release as soon as the book is.
I was unaware that Pathbuilder had any kind of partnership with Paizo. When did that happen?
Fair enough.