|
Long time first edition player (+one practice session of 2e), playing Abomination Vaults with a group with limited 2e experience.
Group composition will be (Only specifics known):
Spirit Barbarian
Monk (Per description: high AC and trip/disarm)
Enigma Bard
Wizard
+me
I'm quite possibly going to be the only healer, definitely primary, but I built up an affection for the Thaumaturge and a bit of character concept before knowing.
Does that Divine Font make Cleric the clear choice or is Thaumaturge with Medicine training + Battle Medicine at 1st, then Lay on Hands at 2nd from (free archetype) Blessed One, good enough for an in-combat healer?
I'll take it as read that I should play the character that I want and all builds are fine. I'm looking for advice on the mechanical viability/advisability of this. Or if it's a no-brainer that I should go cleric, then to know that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You clearly don't have to go for a Cleric. For the very first levels it may be a bit hard (before level 5, characters tend to go down easily) but once at level 5 the lack of a maxed out healer should no more be that important. Also, the Thaumaturge can heal just fine for emergencies, especially if you take extra feats to go that way.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Non-Cleric primary healer is generally fine.
Thaumaturge is a decent choice for a healer. Chalice Implement is built for that, though it is not required. Other feats to look at are Scroll Thaumaturgy and Root to Life.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're fine. Take scroll thaumaturgy, it's good regardless of whether you use it for healing or not. Pick up medicine skills. At low levels where combat can be swingy because of HP to damage ratio it can be tough, but that's true even if you have a focused healer character. Once people are high enough level that a hit that brings you to danger zone leaves you with enough hp to disengage and possibly take yet another hit before going unconscious is kind of outside of healers ability to control.
ways to heal the party
-cleric - most direct healing power, no question
-divine sorcerer (especially angelic bloodline) - decent healing (with slight buffs)
-after that for direct healing most divine/primal casters cut roughly even for in combat healing as long as they are ready to make a few of their highest slots 'heal'
-bard - good healing spell + buffs for survivability (direct and indirect)
-alchemist - heal item dispenser - it is quite nice if everybody got one or two potions at hand at all times
-thaumaturge - chalice gives decent enough healing with temp hp and a good out of combat/emergy heal, as mentioned scroll thaumaturgy is also helping, if you take the amulet as second implement you can also prevent some damage
of course all occult casters can use soothe to complement their healing
other notable mentions:
-leaf order druids goodberry spell is a great out of combat heal
-so is the champions lay on hands, the champion also has a really great damage resistance reaction
-the blessed one archetype grants lay on hands to everyone
-the medic archetype is a great improvement on battlefield healing and pairs especially well with alchemist (Chirugeon) and investigator (forensics) for buffing healing capabilities and the monk (movement is great to be there where you can help)
-multiclassing into divine or primal casters can get you additional spell slots for healing and if you want to go halcyon mage you can theoreticly heal as arcane character
-multiclassing into alchemist or herbalist gives you some alchemy for healing, with herbalist being specialized in that
-if you are a spontaneous caster and feel lucky you could go for wellspring mage in the hope to get a healing slot for every combat
if you are not a cleric spellcaster investing in a wand or staff of healing down the line (or more then one) might be a sound investment (the staff also for clerics themselves)
A spellcaster cannot prepare more than one staff.
But the entire rest of the post is accurate.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be a little wary of going medicine on a Thaumaturge because you don't have a lot of room for wisdom. But Assurance Medichbe can work and IIRC there's even a background that grants it, and it fits nicely with the Thaumaturge flavor. On the other hand Lay on Hands and Chalice kind of eliminate the need for Medicine investment out of combat. Chalice isn't the strongest implement but it is a pretty great party boi vibe.
My advice to players will always be "bugger party roles, play what you like". It sounds like you have some real interest in Thaumaturge and have a character concept already, so just go for that. Cleric is fantastic at Healing but rather underwhelming at everything else, unfortunately.
You can cleric if you see a good concept.
You can heal as a druid or sorcerer or fervor witch.
Druid is the most fun healer in my opinion. You have the most versatile builds.
Sorcerer can be cool too. Elemental or a divine sorcerer.
Fervor witch has a hex your players will love, but won't do much for you.
It depends on how hard your DM runs the game as well. A bard might be able to keep up healing if your DM runs things fairly soft and your party is very coordinated. Otherwise, emergency healing will be needed.
|
I know this will seem off point, but who in your party is providing the Stealth and Thievery? A Cleric with a Rogue-ish archtype might not go amiss.
Thaumaturge seems to lean into dealing out damage, which seems pretty well covered from a party-balance stand point. I don't know about the Chalice Thaumaturge... healing and party buffs/debuffs sounds like the Bard's area.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Add the Phytokineticist to the list of "reasonable options for party healers" .
Your base heal effect is "Fresh Produce" which takes 1 action and manifests a tasty thing in somebody's hands within your aura, which takes one action to eat. It heals 1d4+1 scaling up 1d4+5 every 2 levels, and it leaves you full for 10 minutes (during which you get void resistance.)
But the most fun effect is the damage attenuation for being able to cast "Protector Tree" scaling to your level every round for 2 actions (and it's not overflow.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cleric is the best cleanser, has feats to counteract lots of nasty things. You also don't have a defender, so Thaum with amulet to reduce damage and stack up on tons of scrolls and you'd fit both roles and then some fairly well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my opinion, Thaumaturge with Lay on Hands via either Chosen One or Champion archetype should provide enough out of combat healing for the group. On its own, I do not feel Lay on Hands is sufficient to cover all in combat healing. You would want to supplement it somehow.
The Scroll Thaumaturgy class feat along with a well chosen set of divine scrolls would provide access to the best condition removal spells. In a pinch, you could even use scrolls of Heal to provide some emergency in combat healing.
-the medic archetype is a great improvement on battlefield healing and pairs especially well with alchemist (Chirugeon) and investigator (forensics) for buffing healing capabilities and the monk (movement is great to be there where you can help)
So although Cleric is the best Battle Healer and Champion (via Lay on Hands and refocusing) is likely the best out of combat healer, the Medic archetype allows for good in combat and out of combat healing.
You would most likely eventually want Continual Recovery and Ward Medic skill feats to provide faster out of combat healing. Assurance in Medicine skill will make it faster and more reliable during the game. It allows you to just assume everyone is healed if there isn’t time pressure.
The best thing is that since Medic is an archetype, it can be mixed with any class.
I would say take Thaumaturge but plan to spend some of your class feats for Medic archetype. There are not that many feats in the archetype, so you are likely better off using the Free Archetype for a different archetype.
You would need to check with your GM on if you can take a second archetype outside the free one before you have the requisite other feats from the archetype. Some would allow it, others would not.
Champion (via Lay on Hands and refocusing) is likely the best out of combat healer
Champion does make a really strong out-of-combat healer, but they're only the strongest if they're healing one injured person. Any more than that, a Chirurgeon Alchemist will eventually surpass them, particularly from Level 11+.
At 11-16 a Chirurgeon can give out a Moderate Soothing Tonic to every injured person every ten minutes. That's 30 HP at a time, where the Champion can cast Lay On Hands once for 36-48 HP each time. At 17th onwards the Chirurgeon can upgrade to Greater Soothing Tonic (50 hp).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Champion (via Lay on Hands and refocusing) is likely the best out of combat healerChampion does make a really strong out-of-combat healer, but they're only the strongest if they're healing one injured person. Any more than that, a Chirurgeon Alchemist will eventually surpass them, particularly from Level 11+.
At 11-16 a Chirurgeon can give out a Moderate Soothing Tonic to every injured person every ten minutes. That's 30 HP at a time, where the Champion can cast Lay On Hands once for 36-48 HP each time. At 17th onwards the Chirurgeon can upgrade to Greater Soothing Tonic (50 hp).
Ignoring the particulars of probably needing some wisdom to be successful at making medicine checks, anyone who invests in medicine skill, including a few skill feats, can become pretty reliable in terms of out of combat healing. More so than pretty much anything else.
After 7th level you can be a master in medicine. Assuming you have picked up Ward Medic you can treat 4 people at once. And assuming you picked up continual recovery, you can treat them every 10 minutes. Healing for average of 39 hp per person.
Which is not to say that some other healing options aren't nice, especially in combat. But skill feats are a low price. The only thing that is spendy is choosing one of your (3) skill "increase" lines as medicine if you weren't already looking to focus on it. At 15th level that can upgrade to 59 damage healed (with Legendary in Medicine).
For in combat healing, battle medicine can help. And if you take medic archetype you can use battle medicine once an hour after reaching master in medicine. Though there's a chance it's not enough.
Tell the party to keep some potions handy for emergency healing. Wont hurt for the Bard to learn Soothe either.
This is for Abomination Vaults so alchemist suffers a bit in out of combat healing until l late book 2 when they get Perpetuals.Very true. I was speaking more in the general case.
Ignoring the particulars of probably needing some wisdom to be successful at making medicine checks, anyone who invests in medicine skill, including a few skill feats, can become pretty reliable in terms of out of combat healing. More so than pretty much anything else.
After 7th level you can be a master in medicine. Assuming you have picked up Ward Medic you can treat 4 people at once. And assuming you picked up continual recovery, you can treat them every 10 minutes. Healing for average of 39 hp per person.
Which is not to say that some other healing options aren't nice, especially in combat. But skill feats are a low price. The only thing that is spendy is choosing one of your (3) skill "increase" lines as medicine if you weren't already looking to focus on it. At 15th level that can upgrade to 59 damage healed (with Legendary in Medicine).
You are correct, of course. However, certain Classes, with Champion and Chirurgeon Alchemist perhaps the forefront, can go a bit beyond what's capable with Skills alone. I brought up the Soothing Tonics because Chirurgeons have them as an infinite resource. Where it gets kinda silly is if they bring in non-infinite resources. Things like using Skinstitch Salve when they Treat Wounds, and using Ward Medic as four patients soak up some Healing Vapor. That sort of thing.
This is for Abomination Vaults so alchemist suffers a bit in out of combat healing until l late book 2 when they get Perpetuals.Very true. I was speaking more in the general case.You are correct, of course. However, certain Classes, with Champion and Chirurgeon Alchemist perhaps the forefront, can go a bit beyond what's capable with Skills alone. I brought up the Soothing Tonics because Chirurgeons have them as an infinite resource. Where it gets kinda silly is if they bring in non-infinite resources. Things like using Skinstitch Salve when they Treat Wounds, and using Ward Medic as four patients soak up some Healing Vapor. That sort of thing.Ignoring the particulars of probably needing some wisdom to be successful at making medicine checks, anyone who invests in medicine skill, including a few skill feats, can become pretty reliable in terms of out of combat healing. More so than pretty much anything else.
After 7th level you can be a master in medicine. Assuming you have picked up Ward Medic you can treat 4 people at once. And assuming you picked up continual recovery, you can treat them every 10 minutes. Healing for average of 39 hp per person.
Which is not to say that some other healing options aren't nice, especially in combat. But skill feats are a low price. The only thing that is spendy is choosing one of your (3) skill "increase" lines as medicine if you weren't already looking to focus on it. At 15th level that can upgrade to 59 damage healed (with Legendary in Medicine).
There are a few things that can definitely get ahead of the "baseline" of medicine treating wounds for healing. But I think generally speaking for out of combat healing medicine is sufficient. I don't think the OP is worried about being the best healer, just making sure the party doesn't have casualties. Where chirurgeon and champion more come into play (IMO) is they have much better in combat healing because they can do things that don't have time limits. Like even a medicine focused character with medic still can only use battle medicine once an hour. But champion can use Lay on Hands 3 times in combat. Chirurgeon can hand out potions or tonics like candy to help mitigate in combat damage, though a party can purchase these items the chirurgeon can provide them for free. Although I don't think chirurgeon is viable option from multiclass dedications.
Personally if I was the OP I would clarify with your GM how they intend to run the free archetype stuff. If they're going to keep the restrictions on not taking additional dedications without taking 2 additional feats in the first dedication you could choose either to go medic first or blessed one/champion first.
Champion dedication will give you heavy armor (but it wont progress proficiency) and you can get LOH, but it's another feat. Blessed one will give you LOH immediately. But depending on what you're interested in, there's not anything else that I immediately am drawn too. Medic on the other hand will bump you to expert in medicine and there are plenty of good medicine related feats.
Personally for a thaumaturge I wouldn't want to have the connection to a deity for my character, but that's a personal thing.
|
|
I don't think the OP is worried about being the best healer, just making sure the party doesn't have casualties.
That's correct. Trying to make sure I have sufficient healing to avoid PC deaths at low levels
Personally for a thaumaturge I wouldn't want to have the connection to a deity for my character, but that's a personal thing.
Under ideal circumstances, neither would I. I had thought to go with Medic for the archetype at first, but was concerned that Battle Medicine wouldn't be sufficient at once per person per day (with one exception) at low levels.
Don't forget that regular treat wounds works once per hour and is additional to Barrow Medicinebut the Limit ist definitly a little dampe
Oh, don't forget that the Thaumaturge tends to keep both hands occupied. Battle Medicine doesn't technically require a free hand as written but don't expect your GM to let you get away with that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For thaumaturge, there can be real value in picking up a solid natural weapon from your ancestry - either so you can have a hand free or so that you can carry two nonweapon implements at the same time and still attack. Monkey Goblin plus Hard Tail works quite well for that, if you want something Common, and it lets you trip with your hands full, too.
|
Oh, don't forget that the Thaumaturge tends to keep both hands occupied. Battle Medicine doesn't technically require a free hand as written but don't expect your GM to let you get away with that.
Actually it does :
"Requirements You are holding healer's tools, or you are wearing them and have a hand free"