Creatures and spells' components and visual manifestations


Advice


So, visual and auditory (like verbal components) signs that someone is casting a spell. Ok, players can't have nice things (apart from some wizards which understand importance of Silent Spell).
But what about creatures? Especially those for whom spells should be part of the image? How would quasit or esipil cast fear from hiding? Ghost sounds and creepy messages? Can't poor monsters actually do their ghastly job and enjoy outcome secretly?
What do you do in these cases? Avoid such themes and elements? Ignore rules and make players a bit sad when they can't do the same? Make creatures use spells only in combat?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If it's an innate spell on a creature that is described as being stealthy or deceptive (such as a doppelganger or succubus), I assume there are no components or observable manifestations.

The rest of the time it's whatever the plot demands.

Sovereign Court

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Silent Spell won't do the trick, that doesn't remove the visual manifestations. You need Conceal Spell, which is a feat deeper in even.

There's nothing in the rules saying sneaky-themed creatures can automatically cast sneakier.

I think the history of the current rule is that in PF1 at first there were some seeeeeriously irritating fights with invisible summoner casters that'd just stay invisible and spam the battlefield with summons. Also, there was the mother of all rules arguments about how PF1 spellcraft identified spells. At some point the word came down from on high that spells were really NOT subtle.

Personally I think it might have been better to come up with a "subtle" trait for some spells that indicates this particular spell is not so noticeable during casting. It'd make spells like Ghost Sound actually practical.


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It's the Cast a Spell activity that causes those manifestations.

CRB, pg. 302 wrote:

Casting Spells

Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a number of actions defined by the spell. When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic, although feats such as Conceal Spell and Melodious Spell can help hide such manifestations or otherwise prevent observers from noticing that you are casting.

Casting innate spells requires the use of the Cast a Spell activity, so they produce those manifestations.

CRB, pg. 302 wrote:

Innate Spells

You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your innate spells; since this magic is innate, you can replace any material component with a somatic component.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Silent Spell won't do the trick, that doesn't remove the visual manifestations. You need Conceal Spell, which is a feat deeper in even.

Ehm. No, you mixed them up: 'When you use Silent Spell, you can choose to gain the benefits of Conceal Spell, and you don’t need to attempt a Deception check because the spell has no verbal components.'

I consider them must-have for, well, anyone who can take them, but primarily for wizards. So I read the feats carefully :)
Ascalaphus wrote:
There's nothing in the rules saying sneaky-themed creatures can automatically cast sneakier.

Yes, that's the problem. And I think stories suffer a bit if you just play such monsters RAW.

But we don't have much options apart from the obvious, it seems.
Ascalaphus wrote:
Personally I think it might have been better to come up with a "subtle" trait for some spells that indicates this particular spell is not so noticeable during casting. It'd make spells like Ghost Sound actually practical.

Yeah, that would be nice.

Gisher wrote:
Casting innate spells requires the use of the Cast a Spell activity, so they produce those manifestations.

Yes, they do. So what do you do when these manifestations prevent monsters from doing some magic trick stealthily? And you do want them to perform this trick?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gisher wrote:

It's the Cast a Spell activity that causes those manifestations.

CRB, pg. 302 wrote:

Casting Spells

Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a number of actions defined by the spell. When you Cast a Spell, your spellcasting creates obvious visual manifestations of the gathering magic, although feats such as Conceal Spell and Melodious Spell can help hide such manifestations or otherwise prevent observers from noticing that you are casting.

Casting innate spells requires the use of the Cast a Spell activity, so they produce those manifestations.

CRB, pg. 302 wrote:

Innate Spells

You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your innate spells; since this magic is innate, you can replace any material component with a somatic component.

The rule you quoted is titled "Casting Spells" not "Casting Innate Spells".

It's a good thing the Stealth monsters are using innate spells and not spells.

I'd argue that your rule doesn't even apply.

In any case, I refuse to believe that it was the intent of the developers to make monsters that can't possibly perform as described. Wherever RAW may contradict such intent, any GM worth their salt should ignore it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
I think the history of the current rule is that in PF1 at first there were some seeeeeriously irritating fights with invisible summoner casters that'd just stay invisible and spam the battlefield with summons. Also, there was the mother of all rules arguments about how PF1 spellcraft identified spells. At some point the word came down from on high that spells were really NOT subtle.

I was here when the new stealth casting rules were announced. It was utterly shameful how Paizo handled it. The RAW worked one way for years, everyone knew it, then Paizo changed the way the rules worked and then lied saying "that's the way it had always been," even though their new rules completely broke several published monsters and encounters.

Should have just called it what it was: errata. Instead they treated their customers like idiots in the hope of saving face rather than admitting that they had made a mistake in allowing stealth casters to be so powerful.

Sovereign Court

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Ravingdork wrote:
The rule you quoted is titled "Casting Spells" not "Casting Innate Spells".

There's no separate rule "Casting Innate Spells". Innate Spells use the Cast a Spell activity like everyone else.

It's literally on the same page. Left column talks about innate spells using Cast a Spell and the right column defines how that works.


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Ravingdork wrote:
In any case, I refuse to believe that it was the intent of the developers to make monsters that can't possibly perform as described.

Well, the thing is, nobody explicitly described monsters as able to cast spells silently. At least I haven't seen it. It's just descriptions and essence of spells and monsters' statblocks themselves and obvious stories you could imagine all hint that it should be possible.

Let's look at the Bogey for example: "A bogey typically hunts a single creature at a time, usually a small child or elderly person, methodically stalking and tormenting their prey. Often hiding under a bed, amid a dark attic space, or in a closet left slightly ajar, the bogey delights in the slow, methodical cultivation of fear in its victims." It has ghost sound, message cantrips, fear spells, Stealth +10 and no Invisibility (and even if it had, manifestations aren't invisible with you). So how this 'methodical stalking and tormenting' should look like? A victim hears spellcasting from the attic above and sees magical lights (or even nice ordered magical runes in circles) there every several seconds?
So nobody actually says they cast these spells, but what other things should they do? They can intimidate from bushes, but bushes are searchable :) Unlike creepy voices in your head from a thin air...

And yes, Ascalaphus and Gisher are right, there're no exceptions from spellcasting rules for anyone and anything, including innate spells. The only thing innate spells have - they don't need material components.

Liberty's Edge

If the GM wants a creature to have an ability, then they have it. That is the wonder of the PF2 rules for NPCs/monsters.

Sovereign Court

Errenor wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
In any case, I refuse to believe that it was the intent of the developers to make monsters that can't possibly perform as described.

Well, the thing is, nobody explicitly described monsters as able to cast spells silently. At least I haven't seen it. It's just descriptions and essence of spells and monsters' statblocks themselves and obvious stories you could imagine all hint that it should be possible.

Let's look at the Bogey for example: "A bogey typically hunts a single creature at a time, usually a small child or elderly person, methodically stalking and tormenting their prey. Often hiding under a bed, amid a dark attic space, or in a closet left slightly ajar, the bogey delights in the slow, methodical cultivation of fear in its victims." It has ghost sound, message cantrips, fear spells, Stealth +10 and no Invisibility (and even if it had, manifestations aren't invisible with you). So how this 'methodical stalking and tormenting' should look like? A victim hears spellcasting from the attic above and sees magical lights (or even nice ordered magical runes in circles) there every several seconds?
So nobody actually says they cast these spells, but what other things should they do? They can intimidate from bushes, but bushes are searchable :) Unlike creepy voices in your head from a thin air...

And yes, Ascalaphus and Gisher are right, there're no exceptions from spellcasting rules for anyone and anything, including innate spells. The only thing innate spells have - they don't need material components.

Yeah I think overall it's good that most spells are obvious. Especially things that have "hard" combat value, like summoning monsters and placing walls on the battlefield and such. Letting an invisible caster do that during combat with impunity is annoying. That should cost "extra" in the monster's budget.

But it might be nice for some spells to have a "subtle" trait. That trait would indicate that the components and manifestations of this spell aren't obvious. Maybe people could still get a Perception check to notice them, but it wouldn't be automatic. And such a spell would count as "particularly unobtrusive" for purposes like the Sneak action.

Good examples for "subtle" spells would be Message, Ghost Sound, and maybe some things like Suggestion. So that you have a decent chance of using a Suggestion of someone who isn't alone without everyone else giving you That Look.


i agree on the notion of "subtle" spells.

there are even several spells that do not function correctly without such notion (and i personally houserule them as such) ike, as a simple example, "message" (even the description of the spell says that you mouth the words quitly and non-audibly from the surrounding, but the manifestation rules make it so that even if the words are silent, there's a whole circus going aorund you making it extremly audible that a spell is being cast...).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, something akin to a "subtle" trait sounds like it would be a good (and simple) change.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Making monsters make a deception or stealth check to cast spells secretly like they had the silent spell or conceal spell feat seems pretty fair. Making it automatic feels unnecessarily punitive to players.


Unicore wrote:
Making monsters make a deception or stealth check to cast spells secretly like they had the silent spell or conceal spell feat seems pretty fair.

Yes, I think that's exactly what I will do: give 'specialist' monsters Silent Spell. And also sometimes to some powerful (and experienced) spellcasters like dragons for example. Not to all monsters/NPCs.

This way they could make all their spells hidden, but with action cost and a chance to be discovered. And using already existing structure of the game.

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