Jolt Coil is a level 3 magic item with the trait 'Spellheart' that lets you cast Electric Arc.
The magic item specifies that:
"The spell DC of any spell cast by activating this item is 17."
Which directly contradicts the 'Spellheart' trait:
'When casting a cantrip from a spellheart, you can use your own spell attack roll or spell DC if it's higher.'
So who wins that argument?
If I'm a level 10 spellcaster am I using a cantrip with a save DC of 17, or my caster DC?
Secondly how much damage does it do?
It's a level 3 magic item.
Is the Cantrip heightened as a level 3 caster for 2d4 + spellcaster attribute bonus? (3 / 2 and rounded down to heighten 1).
Of it I'm a level 10 caster, is it heightened 5 for 6d4 + spellcaster attribute bonus and we ignore the fact that this is a level 3 magic item.
This one popped up on a conversation on reddit, and I'm assuming it heightens to 3 and has a DC of 17 because that's what the item itself says, but others are saying it heightens and has a DC as per the user as if it was their own spell and not a magic item.
So I'm now not sure who would be correct, and what that ruling comes from. Yes I know Cantrips auto-heighten. But do magic items auto-heighten?
Cantrips from magic items should auto-heighten because that is the default for cantrips. Unless the item specifies a spell level for the cantrip. There are some that do, like Flame Tongue.
I think the spell DC for the lowest level version of the spellhearts - the ones that can only cast cantrips - is for spellcasters that are getting a cross-tradition cantrip. They would be untrained in the spell, so their normal spellcasting DC would be terrible and they can use the one that the item provides instead. The spellheart trait rule is for casters that could cast the spell on-tradition and have proficiency and a better spell DC for the cantrip.
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Jolt Coil is a level 3 magic item with the trait 'Spellheart' that lets you cast Electric Arc.
The magic item specifies that:
"The spell DC of any spell cast by activating this item is 17."Which directly contradicts the 'Spellheart' trait:
'When casting a cantrip from a spellheart, you can use your own spell attack roll or spell DC if it's higher.'So who wins that argument?
That is not a contradiction. Both are completely correct. The spell heart trait is just giving you an option you can use.
Secondly how much damage does it do?
Yes I know Cantrips auto-heighten. But do magic items auto-heighten?
No magic items don't auto heighten. But cantrips always do. The item doesn't say cast Electric Arc at rank 3. It says cast Electric arc so it works at your level.
Cantrips from magic items should auto-heighten because that is the default for cantrips. Unless the item specifies a spell level for the cantrip. There are some that do, like Flame Tongue.
I think the spell DC for the lowest level version of the spellhearts - the ones that can only cast cantrips - is for spellcasters that are getting a cross-tradition cantrip. They would be untrained in the spell, so their normal spellcasting DC would be terrible and they can use the one that the item provides instead. The spellheart trait rule is for casters that could cast the spell on-tradition and have proficiency and a better spell DC for the cantrip.
For Wands and Staves you are using your normal spell attack and DC. But that is only true because you will always have that tradition.
Spells from items are typically Innate. You use your normal tradition and magic skill if you have one. This does reduce their value for cross class use. I admit I have been letting this one slip. I am going to go back and update my advice so this is clear. It may be that people are reading the Spellhearts rule as being sufficient to override this general rule. I guess that is unclear.
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I don't think there's any need for one to "trump" the other, though, as per Gortle's first post here. The wording for cantrips cast with spellhearts says "you can use your own spell attack roll or spell DC if it's higher," necessitating the question, "higher than what?" Hard to imagine that's anything other than the spell DC/attack roll mentioned individually in each spellheart.
As far as I'm aware, all spellhearts give a static attack roll and/or save DC if any of their spells require them, so it would be strange if the intent there was for the general rule to never come into play.
You are right. I missed that. My bad : DC17 or your own DC if higher.
I think the spell DC for the lowest level version of the spellhearts - the ones that can only cast cantrips - is for spellcasters that are getting a cross-tradition cantrip. ... The spellheart trait rule is for casters that could cast the spell on-tradition and have proficiency and a better spell DC for the cantrip.
Nothing in Spellhearts cares about your tradition. Literally nothing.
This doesn't really matter (the first point is enough), but also spellhearts don't have traditions.
So you can always use 'your own' (best) DC and mod irrespective of tradition.
Spells from items are typically Innate. You use your normal tradition and magic skill if you have one. This does reduce their value for cross class use. I admit I have been letting this one slip. I am going to go back and update my advice so this is clear. It may be that people are reading the Spellhearts rule as being sufficient to override this general rule. I guess that is unclear.
Could you explain? I don't understand your final conclusion.
Also, spellhearts' spells aren't Innate. When items give Innate spells, they explicitly say so.
Says who?
The question is what is the casting skill you use with items by default, that is when the item doesn't say explicitly?
It matters for Spell Attack rolls, Spell DC, counteract checks.
Sometimes the tradition is specified, sometimes not. Sometimes Innate is specified. Mostly not. Often it is just the Spell DC that is specified. That is typically enough.
Scrolls, Wands and Staves require the spell to be on your list to be able to use them, so you know the Tradition and casting skill to use.
Spellhearts don't. They also don't say the Tradition or whether they are Innate. You still have to cast the spell though. It is not one of those items where you just activate it.
So what is your Spell DC with a Spellheart? Do I just use whatever tradition that I like.
Is it an innate spell. The rules for innate spells suggest so Certain spells are natural to your character, typically coming from your ancestry or a magic item. But it is soft language and it is not clear if it is establishing a default or not. We don't have any other guidance though.
Of course the simple answer is to ignore it and just pretend the Spellheart is adding the spell to your list and cast it with your main casting skill. Is that what the Spellheart text is saying?
By the way, if an item gives innate spell, it no more counts as Activating the item, Innate spells and Activations are mutually exclusive (at least they must be). For example, this is an Innate spell-giving item:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=450
That is just not a rule.
Since you cast a Cantrip to activate the Jolt Coil, I would rule that your Electric Arc shares the same Tradition (and thus stats, in this case Save DC) as the Cantrip you cast to activate the Spellheart.
This is not what Cast A Spell activation means at all. While I dont agree with the idea that spellhearts care about your tradition, you absolutely do not cast some other cantrip to use the spellheart's cantrip.
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I don't see anything in the Spellheart rules or Spellheart trait that indicates that the spell is an innate spell.
So if a Cleric picks up a Jolt Coil they can cast Electric Arc with it since the Cleric does have the Spellcasting class feature needed in order to use Cast a Spell item activation.
But using what spellcasting modifier and DC?
They could use the DC listed in the item. That is always available.
They could also use their own spellcasting DC if it is higher - but which spellcasting tradition's spellcasting DC? Electric Arc isn't a Divine spell. And a Cleric is not trained in Arcane or Primal spellcasting DC.
I would probably let them use their Divine spellcasting DC because the Spellheart trait rule doesn't specify which tradition you are needing.
When casting a cantrip from a spellheart, you can use your own spell attack roll or spell DC if it's higher.
It doesn't specify, so I guess you can use whichever one you want - the highest one you happen to have.
But that also isn't entirely clear. It could also be using one of the traditions that the cantrip has natively. So the Cleric has the choice of using the DC from the item, or the proficiency from their off-tradition casting. Which is likely untrained unless they have picked up an archetype.
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Since you cast a Cantrip to activate the Jolt Coil, I would rule that your Electric Arc shares the same Tradition (and thus stats, in this case Save DC) as the Cantrip you cast to activate the Spellheart.This is not what Cast A Spell activation means at all. While I dont agree with the idea that spellhearts care about your tradition, you absolutely do not cast some other cantrip to use the spellheart's cantrip.
You are right. You're just using the Cast a Spell activity. Which states "You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire".
So, I would still infer from it that it uses the stats of the Tradition you would use to Cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire.
So, for innate spells you use innate spells' rules.
For Cast a spell activations you use Cast a spell activation rules.
That is not an either or situation.
Innate spells still use cast a spell.Cast a spell doesn't tell you the Spell DC. The tradition or it being innate does.
There is a clear rules gap with Spellhearts. They should say the tradition or they should say innate.
Spellheart tells you there is another Spell DC option other than the number listed on the item, but they don't tell you how to calculate it. Tradition or innate is the only way in the general rules.
Most of the spells belong to multiple traditions so we are stuck.
We have to either assume innate, or assume the text of Spellhearts is overriding the general spell casting rules in a unique way. Either seems fine to me - I just wish it was clear.
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Innate spells don't use Cast a Spell item activation. They use the Cast a Spell activity directly.
Some items do grant innate spells. Such as the Hat of the Magi and various Aeon Stones.
Spellhearts, such as the Flaming Star do use Cast a Spell activation and do not state that the spell is innate.
I'm not aware of any items that allow the user to choose between casting the spell as an innate spell or via item activation.
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You are right. You're just using the Cast a Spell activity. Which states "You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire".Since you cast a Cantrip to activate the Jolt Coil, I would rule that your Electric Arc shares the same Tradition (and thus stats, in this case Save DC) as the Cantrip you cast to activate the Spellheart.This is not what Cast A Spell activation means at all. While I dont agree with the idea that spellhearts care about your tradition, you absolutely do not cast some other cantrip to use the spellheart's cantrip.
I think you are getting too far into the weeds with literal reading.
Cast a Spell item activation does use Cast a Spell activity. But that first line of rules text - the intent line - doesn't really apply since you are not activating an item by casting a spell from your preparations or repertoire. You are casting from the item.
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You are right. You're just using the Cast a Spell activity. Which states "You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire".Since you cast a Cantrip to activate the Jolt Coil, I would rule that your Electric Arc shares the same Tradition (and thus stats, in this case Save DC) as the Cantrip you cast to activate the Spellheart.This is not what Cast A Spell activation means at all. While I dont agree with the idea that spellhearts care about your tradition, you absolutely do not cast some other cantrip to use the spellheart's cantrip.I think you are getting too far into the weeds with literal reading.
Cast a Spell item activation does use Cast a Spell activity. But that first line of rules text - the intent line - doesn't really apply since you are not activating an item by casting a spell from your preparations or repertoire. You are casting from the item.
At least, this way I have a Tradition to figure out the DC.