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I was listening to a podcast today where they baleful polymorph an enemy into a lizard and it got me thinking. What happens when a baleful polymorphed person dies. The body doesn't change back as the spell continues so what happens to the soul? Do they turn back into their old self and remember X amount of time believing they were an animal? Do they go to the animal afterlife? If you cast true ressurection on them do you get an animal or the person back? If their soul turned back into their original person after dying have you just turned them back into an animal?
Since baleful polimorph is a polimorph effects don't end when the creature die. As i remember all pilimorph effects end it duration or effects when the creature die or the object is destroyed.
As for the soul it's don't change, from my point of view your mental stats and mental think become an animal but one you die, your soul restore to his normal self
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Since baleful polimorph is a polimorph effects don't end when the creature die. As i remember all pilimorph effects end it duration or effects when the creature die or the object is destroyed.
As for the soul it's don't change, from my point of view your mental stats and mental think become an animal but one you die, your soul restore to his normal self
It was it not ending that got me wondering about this as either (a) on death the soul returns to its true self and feels embarassed at spending 10 years as a cow before being slaughtered for meat or (b) remains a cow on death. The former seems to contradict the ruling while the later puts it up there with hellfire as broken spiritual effects in my opinion. Hellfire can send a saint to hell, baleful polymorph to the animal afterlife. There is I'm fairly sure an AP where the party encounters a bunch of disected animals that are baleful polymorphed insects. Its a permanent duration so unless you use break enchantment they don't change back.
I would say when the person dies, the soul is separate. In fact petitioners only have vague memories of their previous existence. It's not exactly the same creature. The flesh + soul isn't actually the same thing as the soul alone. If you read the entries on petitioners from PF1 it backs this up.
So I would say polymorph (including baleful) has no effect on the soul. And it may or may not remember being an animal.
Polymorph spells do not affect the soul in any way shape or form. All they do is to transform your PHYSICAL body to the new shape. It does not even affect your type. You still retain your original type when you are under a polymorph. A polymorph spell does not even grant a creature all the abilities of the creature it transforms them into. Polymorph spells grant you only what all polymorph spells grant you and what is listed in the spell.
If you die while under the effect of a Baleful-Polymorph you are not an animal. When you are dead your physical remains are not important with the possible exception of spells that bring you back to life. Some spells that bring you back to life require your body be mostly intact, for other it does not matter. This is no different than your body being disintegrated into a pile of dust. In the case of Resurrection, you need a small portion of the creature’s body that was part of them when they died. For someone slaughtered for meat you better have a few bones. True Resurrection does not have that limitation.
The fact Hell Fire Ray can send a saint to hell has no bearing on what happens when dying under a polymorph spell. It is an Evocation not a Polymorph spells. It is able to send a soul to hell because that is what the spell does. The Dissected animals would qualify as a small portion of the creature's body.
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I'm aware of how polymorph spells work in general, I'm talking about this specific part of baleful.
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
The fact it specifies you get the new form's int, wis and cha means it will probably of animal intelligence or lower and you do lose extraordinary, supernatural, spell like and spell casting abilities. You are for all intents permanently turned into the animal you appear to be as you're not even going to be aware enough to seek help.
If you die and get raise dead cast on you, you are according to my understanding STILL transformed as permanent spells don't end on death.
What I want to know is how people would handle this death and true ressurection level spells that don't require a body. To put it another way take peasant, turn peasant into horse, sell horse, peasant lives as horse for X years, horse is killed in a hunting accident is the soul the original peasant with memories of being a horse or a horse spirit? If your raise dead do their stats drop back to horse level, if you use true ressurection instead do you get a horse or a peasant?
Remember, baleful polymorph is duration permanent not-instantaneous. The magic could be dispelled at any point by a sufficiently powerful caster.
This means that it doesn't change your actual intelligence or anything, just that you're under a magic effect that's limiting your intelligence. It should function more like an intelligence penalty, even though the wording isn't clear about it.
Nothing in the spell rules (as far as I know) is clear on what happens to spell durations after a creature dies. It's been argued back and forth (such as "well durations don't expire" and "well, dead creatures aren't a valid target for the magic").
Ultimately, my stance is baleful polymorph is irrelevant to what happens to the soul.
At a game mechanics level this basically doesn't matter. It's only important for the narrative/lore. You can decide how you want it to function. And it sounds like you want it to ruin someone's soul.
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Remember, baleful polymorph is duration permanent not-instantaneous. The magic could be dispelled at any point by a sufficiently powerful caster.
This means that it doesn't change your actual intelligence or anything, just that you're under a magic effect that's limiting your intelligence. It should function more like an intelligence penalty, even though the wording isn't clear about it.
Nothing in the spell rules (as far as I know) is clear on what happens to spell durations after a creature dies. It's been argued back and forth (such as "well durations don't expire" and "well, dead creatures aren't a valid target for the magic").
Ultimately, my stance is baleful polymorph is irrelevant to what happens to the soul.
At a game mechanics level this basically doesn't matter. It's only important for the narrative/lore. You can decide how you want it to function. And it sounds like you want it to ruin someone's soul.
More I'm worried it does because while it can be dispelled there is nothing in the rules that would say it ends on death because you raise dead a person under it they come back under its effects.
That's just something to square with your GM.
If you have someone that can cast raise dead, you probably have the ability to dispel magic and get rid of the baleful polymorph, even if the GM decides it sticks around after raise dead.
If you have resurrection or true resurrection, it creates a new body so arguably the bodies condition (including magical effects) don't matter.
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Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no negative levels (or Constitution points) and all of the prepared spells possessed by the creature when it died.
It doesn't cancel other spells, so they have full effect if their duration is still running.
Spells aren't canceled by changes in their targets after they have affected them, otherwise, several spells would be auto-defeating, canceling their effect as soon as they affect someone.
Even if Baleful Polymorph is still running the spell does change the creature’s type. So even if the spell returns the creature to the form they had when they died the creature is not a horse. It may have the shape of a horse but is not a horse. Since the spell is not instantaneous it can as Claxon pointed out be dispelled.
The way I would handle bring back a creature under a baleful polymorph would be if the spell is bringing them back in the same body (Raise Dead) they would come back in the form of a horse but are not actually an animal. If the spell is creating or capable of creating a new body they come back in their original form (Resurrection, or True Resurrection), or in a form specified by the spell (Reincarnate). Resurrection is a 7th level spell, and True Resurrection is a 9th level spell. Baleful Polymorph is only a 5th level spell. Higher level spells should be able to counter the effects of a lower-level spell. Having Resurrection and especially True Resurrection be able to bring back something under a Baleful Polymorph seems to be reasonable to me. Making the charter have to have the Baleful Polymorph dispelled seems to be kind of a dick move.