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Soooo, I kinda declared that I would play a Bloodrager and then put it out to the group to give me a race? Certainly it be worse, Consitution and Charisma are excellent stats to have bonii in, but the small size and penalty to Strength is really going to hurt.
We're starting at first level, playing the Serpent's Skull AP (no spoilers). We have 25 point buy, which is... ominous?
I'm thinking for stats maybe 18 12 12 10 12 12 ==> 16 12 14 10 12 14 after racials?
Anyone got any tips for Bloodlines or anything?
How screwed am I, exactly?
Could always go Urban Bloodrager... Slashing Grace... dex-Rage nonsense. Makes the penalty to Strength a little less annoying.
The cost for the 18 STR is not worth it. I would go for a 16(14 after racial) STR, 14 DEX, 14(16 after racial) CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 14(16 after racial) CHA 16(16 after racial). Take the Abyssal bloodline to gain enlarge person while raging to offset the small size. Take the Steelblood archetype to get heavy armor proficiency. Once you reach 4th level you will be a medium when bloodraging. At 12th level your STR bonus while raging increases due to strength of the abyss.
You could raise the STR to 17(15 after racial) by dropping the CHA to 12(14 after racial). At 4th level put your stat bonus to STR to get a 16. The first 3 level will be a challenge, but after that you should be fine. Out of combat you gain all the benefits of being small, but not when you are fighting.
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Could always go Urban Bloodrager... Slashing Grace... dex-Rage nonsense. Makes the penalty to Strength a little less annoying.
That does sound like a good way to offset the strength, true. However it takes 3 feats to come online, which means I wouldn't be getting dex to damage until level 5... I don't know how far the adventure path goes, but that sounds like I'll be spending half my career doing d4+1 damage.
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The cost for the 18 STR is not worth it. I would go for a 16(14 after racial) STR, 14 DEX, 14(16 after racial) CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 14(16 after racial) CHA 16(16 after racial). Take the Abyssal bloodline to gain enlarge person while raging to offset the small size. Take the Steelblood archetype to get heavy armor proficiency. Once you reach 4th level you will be a medium when bloodraging. At 12th level your STR bonus while raging increases due to strength of the abyss.
You could raise the STR to 17(15 after racial) by dropping the CHA to 12(14 after racial). At 4th level put your stat bonus to STR to get a 16. The first 3 level will be a challenge, but after that you should be fine. Out of combat you gain all the benefits of being small, but not when you are fighting.
Do I really need 16 CHA though? I'm not going to be relying on my saves at all, I mean for starters I don't get nearly enough spells per day to be using them for blasting! Doesn't the extra Charisma basically give me an extra 3rd level spell per day at 10th level and not much else?
Enlarge person also grants a +2 size bonus to STR. That means the gnomes racial penalty is effectively canceled while ranging. Since it is a size bonus it stacks with the moral bonus of bloodrage as well as enchantment bonuses from belts or spells.
Boodrider gets share spell, which means you can cast enlarge person on your wolf. Having a wolf the size of an elephant would be even better. If you take boon companion your wolf will be able to become huge at 7th level.
If you had a dex bonus I'd have proposed a quality build, but might as well go with STR as a gnome.
Something like 15, 14, 16, 10, 10, 14 after racials is good enough.
Take the Master Tinker ART and ask your GM if you can have crafted a Fauchard before the first session, which takes less than a week of downtime. Better to go for crit range than dmg dice in your case.
Are you gonna be the (sole) frontliner? Gnomes can become very good heal-tanks.
However it takes 3 feats to come online, which means I wouldn't be getting dex to damage until level 5... I don't know how far the adventure path goes, but that sounds like I'll be spending half my career doing d4+1 damage.
However long the path goes, the Bloodrager doesn't even start gaining spells until level 4, so there's a wait involved before things start coming together regardless.
Soooo, I kinda declared that I would play a Bloodrager and then put it out to the group to give me a race? Certainly it be worse, Consitution and Charisma are excellent stats to have bonii in, but the small size and penalty to Strength is really going to hurt.
We're starting at first level, playing the Serpent's Skull AP (no spoilers). We have 25 point buy, which is... ominous?
I'm thinking for stats maybe 18 12 12 10 12 12 ==> 16 12 14 10 12 14 after racials?
Anyone got any tips for Bloodlines or anything?
How screwed am I, exactly?
Honestly those stats are fine and you'll make a fine Bloodrager. The only thing I would think about is getting 15 CON for RAGING VITALITY. You don't necessarily need it at level 1, but you'll want it by level 8 or so, so either level-up into it or get yourself a belt. It only costs you 1 extra point to get 15 CON at level 1, so you could take it from CHA or WIS, and dispite what people say you could even take it from STR and start with 15 and be fine . If you did take from STR you'd be pumping that at ever level for sure though. Oh and yeah you don't need more than 14 CHA. I took it to 18 eventually but you really don't need to go past 14.
I recommend the Aberrant Bloodline because it gives you reach, as opposed to the Abyssal bloodline which just negates the STR penalty. Reach is better, even without Combat Reflexes you'll generate AoOs.
One thing I discovered playing a Bloodrager is that they're actually fairly fragile at low levels, so I ended up not using rage much until about level 5 when I had the HP to handle the reduced AC.
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Enlarge person also grants a +2 size bonus to STR. That means the gnomes racial penalty is effectively canceled while ranging. Since it is a size bonus it stacks with the moral bonus of bloodrage as well as enchantment bonuses from belts or spells.
Boodrider gets share spell, which means you can cast enlarge person on your wolf. Having a wolf the size of an elephant would be even better. If you take boon companion your wolf will be able to become huge at 7th level.
Not gonna lie, an itty bitty Gnome riding around on a Huge wolf sounds like exactly my kinda jam.
I don't get share spells ("Blood Bond") until level 9, and the Gnome FCB (Add ¼ to the bloodrager’s effective class level when determining the power of her bloodrager bloodline powers.) won't advance that at all, but... am I right in saying that it would advance my effective level for the purposes of determining my animal companion wolf, Pheighdeaux? (wait, no, only affects bloodline stuff and that's not bloodline... damn)
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If you had a dex bonus I'd have proposed a quality build, but might as well go with STR as a gnome.
Something like 15, 14, 16, 10, 10, 14 after racials is good enough.
Take the Master Tinker ART and ask your GM if you can have crafted a Fauchard before the first session, which takes less than a week of downtime. Better to go for crit range than dmg dice in your case.Are you gonna be the (sole) frontliner? Gnomes can become very good heal-tanks.
I don't know what the starting gold is, but I'm wanting to grab the Gnome ripsaw glaive - reach, and +2 to damage. Sure it's a move action to activate, but reach means I can get attacks of opportunity. And it's a cool Gnomen weapon. The crit isn't great, but I'll take the static damage boost tbh.
I won't be the sole frontliner, but probably the primary one. Animal companions don't tend to scale very well as tanks.
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Honestly those stats are fine and you'll make a fine Bloodrager. The only thing I would think about is getting 15 CON for RAGING VITALITY. You don't necessarily need it at level 1, but you'll want it by level 8 or so, so either level-up into it or get yourself a belt. It only costs you 1 extra point to get 15 CON at level 1, so you could take it from CHA or WIS, and dispite what people say you could even take it from STR and start with 15 and be fine . If you did take from STR you'd be pumping that at ever level for sure though. Oh and yeah you don't need more than 14 CHA. I took it to 18 eventually but you really don't need to go past 14.
I recommend the Aberrant Bloodline because it gives you reach, as opposed to the Abyssal bloodline which just negates the STR penalty. Reach is better, even without Combat Reflexes you'll generate AoOs.
One thing I discovered playing a Bloodrager is that they're actually fairly fragile at low levels, so I ended up not using rage much until about level 5 when I had the HP to handle the reduced AC.
Firstly, I recognise you from the thread on N Jolly's Investigator guide! HI AGAIN!! :D
I had forgotten about raging vitality, but the research I've been doing in the last few days did mention it several times, so I think you're onto something there. I'm looking like dropping my STR to 17 and INT to 8, using the points to bump CON and DEX. Level 4 takes my strength back where it was, so the lasting difference becomes the increased AC, reflex, and initiative. Not forgetting of course that Ride is a dex based skill.
And Aberrant was absolutely one of the bloodlines I have been looking strongly at. Black Blood seems comparable, the level 1 gives frost damage instead of staggering with a save, but both give reach at level 4 and some minor resistances at level 8. Gnome with 10-15ft reach? I probably won't have combat reflexes to take advantage of it at all. I don't get many free feats, so adding Boon Companion and Mounted Combat mean I'm pretty squeezed.
I'm also looking at Phoenix and Sphinx. They don't give me reach, but my weapon still does (not quite the same but still).
Firstly, I recognise you from the thread on N Jolly's Investigator guide! HI AGAIN!! :D
Hiya =)
I had forgotten about raging vitality, but the research I've been doing in the last few days did mention it several times, so I think you're onto something there.
Yeah Raging Vitality is important once you get to mid-levels. Without it, when you drop to 0 HP you stop raging, which means you also lose 2 X level HP, which usually means instant death past level 5 or so. So not only does it give you extra HP and Fort-saves, it also stops you dying if those extra HP aren't enough.
Also not that Raging Vitality is actually a prerequisite, but it also helps out later when you get RAGING BRUTALITY, which is a phenomenal feat.
I'm looking like dropping my STR to 17 and INT to 8, using the points to bump CON and DEX. Level 4 takes my strength back where it was, so the lasting difference becomes the increased AC, reflex, and initiative. Not forgetting of course that Ride is a dex based skill.
Yeah it's worth noting that as a small character you'll deal less damage, but you'll also get an inherent +1 to hit. Now this is effectively cancelled out by your -2 STR, but the +1 to hit does make the lower STR less objectional.
Now I know you're planning on playing a Gnome, but if you're willing to entertain the idea of a Halfling instead they have access to the RISKY STRIKER feat which can more than make up for the lack in damage. It'll be a slower start and cost you 1 more feat, but you'd eventually deal more damage than a Half-Orc or whatever . Not saying Should play a Halfling, just putting it out there.
And Aberrant was absolutely one of the bloodlines I have been looking strongly at. Black Blood seems comparable, the level 1 gives frost damage instead of staggering with a save, but both give reach at level 4 and some minor resistances at level 8. Gnome with 10-15ft reach? I probably won't have combat reflexes to take advantage of it at all. I don't get many free feats, so adding Boon Companion and Mounted Combat mean I'm pretty squeezed.
Yeah if I'm honest Staggering Strike has never come up. Part of that is the AP I'm playing and part of it is due to my dice curse ... and probably some of it is due to me just forgetting that I had it. But the inherent problem I have with it is that it procs on a crit. By level 7 or so my crits were so hugely damaging that they one-shot most mooks, and anything big enough to survive a crit also had a high enough fort-save to make this fairly useless. Getting bonus Black Blood damage might end up being better.
Also regarding Combat Reflexes, if your GM allows the PRIMALIST archetype you could take the Quick Reflexes Rage Power instead of spending a feat. 2 AoOs is honestly more than enough for 90% of combats. It probably depends on your GM and the campaign you're playing, but my experience in a few games with different GMs is that 3 AoOs in 1 round is pretty rare. Again not something you necessarily need, but just putting it out there. If you plan on playing the mounted Bloodrager this may be less necessary as you'll be playing a different role in the party.
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I had forgotten about raging vitality, but the research I've been doing in the last few days did mention it several times, so I think you're onto something there.
- You don't actually need the feat... as long as you remember that the HP boost from rage doesn't make you more sturdy. The reason the Sudden barbarian Death Syndrome exists is because people think that when rage adds 20 HP, they can also take 20 more damage, and thus their start worrying about their HP 20 points later. Just don't do that and you're fine. Check damage against your pre-Rage HP, and act as if the bonus wasn't there at all.
Let's assume a 8th level Bloodrager with 15 Con using PFS's HD rule. A non-raging BR dies after taking 84 damage (unconscious after 70 damage). A raging BR dies after taking 86 damage.
That's not to say Raging Vitality wasn't useful - it makes the sample character die after taking a whopping 114 damage, while also increasing your Fort save by +1 - just saying if you're short on feats, don't fear that without Raging Vitality your character is doomed to die with nothing to do about that.
On a different note, if you do decide to go Bloodrider, a dip into Sohei Monk lets you pick up Mounted Skirmisher as a prereq-free bonus feat, effectively giving you pounce. At 7th+ Level, that's a ton of value.
Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). Spells cast in this way must come from a class that grants an animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Share spell something your animal companion gains as part of being an animal companion. What it does is allows you to target any spell with the target of your on their animal companion instead of themselves even if the spell normally does not affect animals. So, you can cast enlarge person on your wolf even if though it normally does not affect animals.
If you take enlarge person as a bloodrager spell you can cast, it on your wolf instead of casting it on yourself. At 5th level that would make the wolf large, this allows you to ride it when you become a medium creature due to demonic bulk. If you take boon companion your wolf becomes large at 7th level and enlarge person can boost it to huge.
Blood Bond would eliminate the need to cast enlarge person once you reach 9th level. Until then enlarge person can keep your mount large enough for you to ride it.
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Yeah Raging Vitality is important once you get to mid-levels. Without it, when you drop to 0 HP you stop raging, which means you also lose 2 X level HP, which usually means instant death past level 5 or so. So not only does it give you extra HP and Fort-saves, it also stops you dying if those extra HP aren't enough.
Also not that Raging Vitality is actually a prerequisite, but it also helps out later when you get RAGING BRUTALITY, which is a phenomenal feat.
Hrmm, I'm pretty squeezed for feats early on (I'll need iron will before too long) so maybe in the long term it can be something to consider if I make it to level 9?
Now I know you're planning on playing a Gnome
First session is tomorrow, it's far too late to be changing my mind about things :P
Yeah if I'm honest Staggering Strike has never come up.
Maybe the crit gods will smile on me where the damage gods forsake me? I have crit for 1 non-lethal before, but I'm not playing a 7 Str wizard this time so that's not really going to be coming up again. Given I'm looking at a 20x3 crit weapon, I totally agree that tacking a fort save on the top is like 95% either redundant or pointless. Bloodrage powers are theoretically worth two Barbarian rage powers, but something that's got less than 0.5% chance to come up and is only a 1 round inconvenience when it does?? Pass!
Also regarding Combat Reflexes, if your GM allows the PRIMALIST archetype you could take the Quick Reflexes Rage Power instead of spending a feat...
I was looking at this, but I think I'm going to take cross-blooded instead. Black Blood is nifty for the frost damage and the reach, but the spells are... shall we say underwhelming? Black Tentacles is nice other than not being party friendly, but 1d6 *non-lethal* cold damage every ten minutes is weak for a first level spell. As a second level it's pathetic. Made worse by granting them a new save before every single instance of damage. So I'll take the first two powers from Black Blood and the spells from Phoenix (Lesser Restoration on a bloodrager! although waiting until level 10 to get it...). The later stuff from Phoenix is pretty nice, even if I'm probably never going to get there. Which kinda means I'm spending most of my time just taking the Will penalty for no real benefit since the first thing to kick in happens at 7th level... Hrmm. If we're not going past 8 that's absolutely not worth the trade, is it.
I was looking at this, but I think I'm going to take cross-blooded instead.
I would strongly advise against that. It's effectively a -4 will save penalty on a class with a weak will save progression. The "only" time it's worthwhile is if you're using Destined to boost up your saves. And technically Bloodrider is incompatible with Crossblooded as they both affect the bonus feats. (And incompatible with Primalist because bonus feats are part of the bloodline)
I'd keep it simple and go with just Bloodrider. Mounted Combat feats are for schmucks so ignore them. If you're worried about will saves, then considered the Deathtouched character trait for a +2 vs mind-affecting. And keep in mind that you can replace the 1st level bloodline power with a Bloodline Familiar, of which there are a bunch of good options. Hedgehog is a common choice for its +2 will bonus.
If you think your GM would be okay with you healing through everything then I'd take the starfish familiar and combo it with the Vivacious gnome ART + the Signature Skill/Healer's Hand combo.
I was looking at this, but I think I'm going to take cross-blooded instead.I would strongly advise against that. It's effectively a -4 will save penalty on a class with a weak will save progression.
This.
Crossblooded not only gives you a permanent -2 to will saves, but also loses the +2 morale bonus when raging. Yes you can make yourself super powerful using the best of 2 bloodlines, but when you get dominated by the enemy that just means you kill your own party faster .
I do agree that those spells are underwhelming, but I'd be much more inclined to find a bloodline who's spells and abilities are "ok" than try to get the best of both worlds for a -4 to will saves. The other thing to remember here is that although Staggering Strike has literally never come up for me I have played my Bloodrager from level 1 to level 17, and I've been very happy with him. Having 1 irrelevant class feature isn't the end of the world as long as you can make the others worthwhile. Looking at the Phoenix and Black Blood bloodlines I'd be inclined to just go with Phoneix and carry a reach weapon.
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I was looking at this, but I think I'm going to take cross-blooded instead.I would strongly advise against that. It's effectively a -4 will save penalty on a class with a weak will save progression.This.
Crossblooded not only gives you a permanent -2 to will saves, but also loses the +2 morale bonus when raging. Yes you can make yourself super powerful using the best of 2 bloodlines, but when you get dominated by the enemy that just means you kill your own party faster .
I do agree that those spells are underwhelming, but I'd be much more inclined to find a bloodline who's spells and abilities are "ok" than try to get the best of both worlds for a -4 to will saves. The other thing to remember here is that although Staggering Strike has literally never come up for me I have played my Bloodrager from level 1 to level 17, and I've been very happy with him. Having 1 irrelevant class feature isn't the end of the world as long as you can make the others worthwhile. Looking at the Phoenix and Black Blood bloodlines I'd be inclined to just go with Phoneix and carry a reach weapon.
It'll be fiiiiiiine, I'll just take Iron Will and it will essentially balance out, right? I mean that's even one of the options for bonus feats! I just need to not encounter any mind-affecting abilities for the first six levels of adventuring and it won't even be a problem!
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There they go. The bravest player I've ever seen, playing the most cowardly bloodrager I've ever seen.
Just fyi, but bonus spells is not a major concern. Or even a middling concern. You are a 4th level caster so you should mainly be on the lookout for 1st level spells (supplemented with Runestones of Power) that you can spam with Greater Bloodrage, or long-lasting higher level buffs.
When choosing a Bloodline this is generally the way you want to look at it:
Bloodline Powers>Bloodline Feats>>>Bonus Spells
It'll be fiiiiiiine, I'll just take Iron Will and it will essentially balance out, right?
Erm ...
I mean, really it depends on what role you want to play in the party. My bloodrager is a tank/defender/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Having high saves is Very important to my character. We also nearly had a couple of TPKs to the Confusion spell in the early game - When a Gunslinger and a Bloodrager start full-attacking one another while confused it's a very short timer to get them out of it.
For the record, my Half-Orc Bloodrager had Sacred Tattoos, Fate's Favoured and Iron Will by level 6, giving me +4 to will saves. I also took a level of Oracle which gave me a bit of a will save boost as well. There's also an Ioun Stone that gives you a +1 Insight bonus to saves, which will stack with your cloak.
I would say though that will saves are something most Bloodragers have to invest in, tacking on a -4 on top of that is going to be problematic.
Just fyi, but bonus spells is not a major concern. Or even a middling concern. You are a 4th level caster so you should mainly be on the lookout for 1st level spells (supplemented with Runestones of Power) that you can spam with Greater Bloodrage, or long-lasting higher level buffs.
This is all good advice. I quite like the spell list for Aberrant , they're all good spells and thematic. But when you look closely you realise that only Displacement is actually a bonus, the rest ofthem are already on the Bloodrager spell list at the same spell-level they're given. All I really get from the Bloodline is that I wait 3 levels for each of those spells. I still use them, but I could have used them with any bloodline.
Looking at the Black Blooded bonus spells they're all already on the list. Phoenix has Lesser Restoration and Cure Serious Wounds, but realistically both come online too late and aren't a great investment for you spell slots. You get Lesser Restorstion at level 10, but the Cleric has been casting it since level 3. A 20th level Bloodrager has two, maybe three 4th level spells, are you really going to waste one on Cure Serious Wounds?
About the only thing that makes bloodline spells really relevant is the RING OF ANCESTRAL BLOOD MAGIC, and even then I'd be looking at your level 1 and 2 spells, the other spells just come too late.
When choosing a Bloodline this is generally the way you want to look at it:
Bloodline Powers>Bloodline Feats>>>Bonus Spells
This is a good way to look at it.
Bloodline powers can often give you unique abilites, so they're the hardest to replicate. My Aberrant Limbs can stack with Longarm and Enlarge person to give me 20 foot reach, which is an excellent thing to have.
Bonus feats are things anyone can get, but you'll want a list that has feats you actually care about. I would say 3 good feats is enough, once you get to the higher levels you probably already have your build online and don't care as much.
Bonus spells are good IF they're actually bonus spells and IF you'll be able to make use of them. Long duration buffs and swift/immediate action spells get extra points if you can find them. Spells requiring a save are basically useless unless you have some trick to buff your save-DCs or debuff enemy saves before appllying them.
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are you really going to waste one on Cure Serious Wounds?
I mean, if the cleric goes down it's nice to have a "get the hell back up and keep healing us!" option? If I was a prepared caster it would be worthless because I would never actually declare at the start of the day that it was worth the spell slot, but as a spontaneous caster I can just ignore it until something comes up and suddenly I need it. Lesser restoration is super late, sure, but if it comes up I will be incredibly grateful that I have it. A level 2 spell that essentially works as a combat cantrip? Less so. As you say, spells are the least important part of a bloodline, so it's OK if some of them are ones I only need in emergencies.
And if confusion comes up then apparently the casters can make themselves invisible. Or more specifically, one of the casters has a spiritual outsider kind of familiar thing that can turn people invisible at will. I don't quite understand how he gets this at first level, but the GM's signed off on it so...