Ah. A Witch-specific General feat... Beautiful.
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At best you'll find you can have a GM who can spend hours homebrewing old content so it halfway plays nice with the new ones but after one or two years the content will either be fully replaced with something more powerful (there is NO OTHER WAY to ensure players will buy the NEW books under the ORC) or it will use mechanics that are simply incompatible with the new assumptions and norms of PF2.5/PF2r.
If they were wise they WOULD completely go back to the drawing board and fix EVERY mistake they've made and own up to the move they're making, they need to people to repurchase ALL of the rules for the system, every Class, Spell, Magic Item, and other mechanics. YES, it's mostly because of OGL nonsense but it doesn't change the fact that they need the money that is generated by a community switching over to buy an entirely new line of products and ceasing continued support for an older edition.
The Witch should, like the Champion and Alchemist, get a full rewrite out of necessity. Doing anything less with the existing classes will just be laziness, and yes, they have to be more powerful, flexible, and better in every way, otherwise, folks will demand to use the old version of the Class which is a BIG problem the "bottom line" at Paizo who desperately will need people to buy the new books that will replace the existing PF2 Core System line.
All of this rant to say that I COMPLETELY agree with the need for and value in moving to a new edition, I just wish the marketing and PR folks at Paizo were more honest/ethical about it all.
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Remember, people, Remastered will still be PF2. Not back to PF1.
It doesn't need to go back to PF1, which was overtly complex, but it can't still be PF2 either, because otherwise the Witch is still going to be bad.
It needs to be better than PF2, otherwise it's still a disappointment.
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leaving out just Divine felt off to folks.
I'd have been OK with that. There are plently of other Divine classes
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** spoiler omitted **...
I agree. I fully expect to only get some of what we want and to be dissapointed by some of the changes. I know we can't get all of what we want as we clearly want contradictory things. I do remain hopeful that on average that it will be a fair improvement.
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Absolutely ANYONE using the 3.0 or 3.5 version of the Fighter when Pathfinder RPG dropped would find out instantaneously when at a table with a player who used the PFRPG CRB that the two games and the set of rules were only "compatible" as a means to ensure they could coax/entice a huge existing player-base
Kind of a wild thing to read when much of that existing player base did (and still does, in a few corners of the internet) use 3.0, 3.5, and PF1 material almost completely interchangeably and in many ways the changes are less extreme here.
You say "That is all marketing spin to assuage edition war fears." ... but the consensus elsewhere online has been literally the opposite: That 'remaster' is overmarketing in an attempt to hype up what's really just little more than an errata backlog and CYA legal changes, and that people expecting anything really significant need to temper their expectations because the game just isn't changing much.
The claim that you'll need "hours of homebrewing" to figure out how to make PF2 content work because... wizards might have new focus spells and divine lance can damage animals now is just not something grounded in the reality of what we've seen so far.
You say copium, but my reaction here is less 'I don't think it will be that bad' and more just genuine confusion because I have no idea what you're talking about (while noting your continued refusal to list any specifics).
Based on some of the stuff that was teased at Paizocon, what are some ideas and inspirations that you have for feats and stuff added to the Witch.
Like the new Unique Patron ability for the Familiars.
What do you think some of those will be?
Like the Winter Patron creating icy difficult terrain.
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Also I'm excited for the new item, Crown of Witchcraft.
I dont know what it does but I want it.
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I just hope that the remastered witch has a way to gain more than one hex cantrip, since like a Bard can grab like eight focus cantrips by spending feats.
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Based on some of the stuff that was teased at Paizocon, what are some ideas and inspirations that you have for feats and stuff added to the Witch.
Like the new Unique Patron ability for the Familiars.
What do you think some of those will be?Like the Winter Patron creating icy difficult terrain.
Minor cantrips that don't do much mostly. Lots of "oh look this is thematic" but actually generally pointless.
If they are more than that, it will be stuff that should be hexes available for all witches, which is the entire issue right now. Witches were fun because you could build them however you wanted, they removed that to add the lessons and make the familiar more important. Now they are doubling down on it, which is liable to just make it worse.
The people who liked the lesson witch will get their cookie. Everyone else will be SOL.
Oh wow you sure know a lot about something that hasn't been released yet.
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Based on some of the stuff that was teased at Paizocon, what are some ideas and inspirations that you have for feats and stuff added to the Witch.
Like the new Unique Patron ability for the Familiars.
What do you think some of those will be?Like the Winter Patron creating icy difficult terrain.
Minor cantrips that don't do much mostly. Lots of "oh look this is thematic" but actually generally pointless.
If they are more than that, it will be stuff that should be hexes available for all witches, which is the entire issue right now. Witches were fun because you could build them however you wanted, they removed that to add the lessons and make the familiar more important. Now they are doubling down on it, which is liable to just make it worse.
The people who liked the lesson witch will get their cookie. Everyone else will be SOL.
Kind of agree with this, since the Witch class in PF1 was largely defined by its Hexes. There wasn't much else in the way of class-specific feats in PF1, and given that the Lesson (AKA Hex) feats in PF2 felt practically mandatory to take, not unlike the Extra Hex feat(s) in PF1, it's not surprising that there isn't much else in the Witch feat tree to build off of, especially since there wasn't much to build off of in PF1 either. What, Accursed Hex to give you more staying power? Maybe Split Hex if you were wanting to stretch it out some. Otherwise, it was typical feats or the obvious "Extra Hex" feat that was taken until you ran out of feats. Which isn't exactly compelling character building when you realize all of the class' power budget was sunk into the Hex feature. And that's not a bad thing, but when you change that to a class feat paradigm, it doesn't really translate well to PF2.
Just as well, Witches weren't exactly "built however they want," there was a lot of cookie-cutter options that most everyone took due to the unique/powerful aspect of them. How many Witches had things like Flight, Slumber, and Fortune/Misfortune? Yes, they're iconic and powerful options. No, that doesn't translate to "built however you wanted."
I will say that if the Winter Witch gets merely difficult terrain as a starting Hex, I would be highly disappointed in its execution when it should basically amount to a Cold-based Scatter Scree.
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I just hope that the remastered witch has a way to gain more than one hex cantrip, since like a Bard can grab like eight focus cantrips by spending feats.
Honestly this, one of my least favorite design choices for the 2e witch and why I'm a little worried about the remaster's decision to lean into the familiar instead of hexes, though at the same time some of the familiar powers read like hexes by another name so maybe they'll be good.
Based on some of the stuff that was teased at Paizocon, what are some ideas and inspirations that you have for feats and stuff added to the Witch.
Like the new Unique Patron ability for the Familiars.
What do you think some of those will be?Like the Winter Patron creating icy difficult terrain.
I'd like a bunch of feat "pathways" that take the witch in different directions. Call the current witch the "hex witch" just for reference. The hair & claws witch is another clear pathway; buff these up so that they're viable. I kinda like the idea of a cauldron/broom/animated house/crafter witch as a third pathway. And to break away from the midieval mold and channel your inner Circe, maybe a polymorphing/shapshifting set of feats. Make'em good enough so that if you're abandoning the strategy of casting (or maintaining) that second hex spell per round, the alternate thing you do (strike with hair, order your broom, put extra oomph into that polymorph or shift) is equally good.
Ohhhhhh I like this train of thought.
I hadn't even considered something like that.| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
it is actually amazing how awful witch turn out to be
Please be reasonable. Witches are fine. They just clearly got less stuff than other classes and could do with some more toys, but they were and are reasonable to play.
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I have made Divine work for Witch.
I do NOT want to be held 'hostage' with mandatory familiar usage to do anything worthwhile in combat.
I also don't want rules that limit creativity like what happened with Oracle.
Too much to hope for?
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I would say that feeling like the witch is awful is valid, even if the reality is that the class is perfectly functional. It's really just that if I made a tier list I would probably put the witch on the bottom of the chart, and that feels really bad. Saying it is the worst class is probably true, but ofc doesn't paint the whole picture. You still get to pick a list, some of the focus spells are okay, and getting access to spells is always good. A free familiar is fine and useful. Just not worth losing 10 spell slots in favor of meh cantrips. I'm personally bitter about this because I asked for some of the hexes to be focus cantrips instead of just focus spells and it really feels like a sort of genie wish scenario. I got what I wanted, but God, at what cost?
i feel like the core issue is with the focus cantrips.
they are simply bad, single target, versions of what a bard can do better and aoe.
being single target they should have been objectively stronger than the aoe versions of bard.
so, as an example, Evil Eye gives a save for a single target Fear effect similar to Dirge when Dirge is both AoE and no save.
imo it should have scaled, so, let it start as it is now, then by spell level 4 (so 1 level after a bard can get Dirge) make it frighten 2, then at something like spell level 7 make it frighten 3.
instead of the current degrees of succes, just make them completely unaffected/1 less degree/normal/1 more degree depending on their result.
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similarily, stroke the heart. change it from heighten (+2) to heighten (+1)
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clinging ice should scale the damage as well (1d4 per spell level)---
nudge fate should also scale to +2 and eventually +3
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and etc.
there's no reason why single target should be weaker than aoe, but that's the reality when comparing bard to witch.
Definitely agree here. If Hexes are single target the need to have more of an impact.
Yeah, if the psychic didn't already exist, which when I asked for focus cantrips on witch they didn't, I would be more in favor of something like what the psychic does, however they already exist. So I personally want them back up to four slots as a baseline
Removed some off topic posts.
Based on some of the stuff that was teased at Paizocon, what are some ideas and inspirations that you have for feats and stuff added to the Witch.
Like the new Unique Patron ability for the Familiars.
What do you think some of those will be?Like the Winter Patron creating icy difficult terrain.
James Case spoiled that “Rune” Witch causes they’re familiar to count as flanking when they cast/sustain a hex.
“Wild” being able to have their familiar Strike could be fun.
OMG!!!
I missed that. And I love it! Oh this is gonna be so good.With everything that is teased and what we can theorize from that. Just makes me so happy for the Witch class.
It's always been my favorite class both Lore and Mechanically.
When I played D&D the Warlock was my class. When my group switched to Pathfinder was just after the APG released and right away I loved the Witch. And I've been a loyal Paizo Customer since then.
The concept of the Patron, Familiar and Hexes. It is my favorite theme in RPG.
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So I had a thought.
Back in 1E they released the Blood of the Coven book.
And one of the coolest option that that gave the Witch was Unique Patrons.
https://aonprd.com/UniquePatrons.aspx
I would love to see the Patrons done similar to this.
The Patron grants a Hex at 1st level and then you have a choice between 4 themes for your Patron spells.
In 2E that could be redesigned to your Patron Theme Hex Cantrip and the 4 themes could be be designed as 4 Lessons that Patron theme grants access too. With some lessons over lapping between Patrons and some even specific to that Patron.
Of course that could limit the customization of Witches.
But I do like the concept.
PS. I do not know how to activate the link.
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Based on some of the stuff that was teased at Paizocon, what are some ideas and inspirations that you have for feats and stuff added to the Witch.
Like the new Unique Patron ability for the Familiars.
What do you think some of those will be?Like the Winter Patron creating icy difficult terrain.
James Case spoiled that “Rune” Witch causes they’re familiar to count as flanking when they cast/sustain a hex.
“Wild” being able to have their familiar Strike could be fun.
Oh, and here I was hoping Rune witch might end up good.
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didn't witch need familiar alive to cast spell
what use a full caster would be if they can not cast spell for the rest of the day
No, Witches only need the Familiar to learn and prepare spells. They are not required to cast spells in PF2. Plus, Witch familiars respawn after 24 hours (AKA when they next rest and prepare), so it's really only an issue if you chose not to prepare your full spell slots or if you need to learn a spell right away.
You are confusing that with the old school Bonded Item rules in PF1, where not having a Familiar inflicted a DC check to cast a spell.
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The flanking example is low key, but it ain't bad. With Independent, you basically get a free action way to provide flat footed for your martial buddies which doesn't prevent an ally from moving into the same space once their turn comes around. I've been known to use two actions for Illusory Creature for similar effects and the extra accuracy fort eh barbarian generated more damage than anything else I cast, and this is much better action economy.
The only problem with your familiar being in the mix is that you lose those advantages plus your refocus if it gets killed. Refocus can be worked around with multiclassing though, and if your familiar can soak hits you're saving damage for your allies. AoE damage is really the biggest danger, but at least this could make Phase Familiar a worthwhile class feature, especially if they buff it.
Also, they could pretty easily tweak the familiar revival mechanics to offset those problems. I know the familiar isn't everyone's jam but I'm glad they are leaning into them. I hope we also get some cleaned up rules about using them as scouts. With that and some better hex cantrips I'll feel justified playing a witch instead of a bard or wizard. Having a soul bound creature which isn't an eidolon but meaningfully contributes is tight fantasy.
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The flanking example is low key, but it ain't bad. With Independent, you basically get a free action way to provide flat footed for your martial buddies which doesn't prevent an ally from moving into the same space once their turn comes around. I've been known to use two actions for Illusory Creature for similar effects and the extra accuracy fort eh barbarian generated more damage than anything else I cast, and this is much better action economy.
The only problem with your familiar being in the mix is that you lose those advantages plus your refocus if it gets killed. Refocus can be worked around with multiclassing though, and if your familiar can soak hits you're saving damage for your allies. AoE damage is really the biggest danger, but at least this could make Phase Familiar a worthwhile class feature, especially if they buff it.
Also, they could pretty easily tweak the familiar revival mechanics to offset those problems. I know the familiar isn't everyone's jam but I'm glad they are leaning into them. I hope we also get some cleaned up rules about using them as scouts. With that and some better hex cantrips I'll feel justified playing a witch instead of a bard or wizard. Having a soul bound creature which isn't an eidolon but meaningfully contributes is tight fantasy.
So they get a slightly better Illusory Creature "Hex", but the issue also becomes that they have to cast/sustain a Hex for that to work in-between rounds; when you are in a situation where you can't (such as if they succeed at a save, or can't be targeted by a given Hex again), it's basically situational at-best and impossible at-worst. Giving them an ability that doesn't always apply, or isn't always helpful, or is dependent on an enemy's rolls is a bad concept given that Familiars already have plenty of abilities that don't apply as-is, even if by design. Sure, you can enable/disable this more compared to a spell slot, and maybe use it more frequently between fights, but it's at-best a wash in the higher levels due that it's competing with stronger and stronger options.
I mean, I understand they want the Familiar to be more central to the class' identity, which does demonstrate that they definitively want the Witch to be the Familiar class (anyone saying otherwise is basically in denial at this point), but given that Familiars in this edition are terrible from the start, they are still trying to put a good amount (if not all) of their power budget into the Familiar, and it just defeats the entire purpose of them being any semblance of power or usefulness, given that they are written to be the weakest feature in the game. They lack fleshed out mechanics for even the most basic things, and are denied from doing even the most basic of activities like Striking or even using items (really, two extremely important combat activities, the latter of which is crucial for support-based characters/creatures), and at-best I would expect the Remaster to be able to explain away things like carrying capacity. I do not expect Familiars to be able to make Strikes or activate items, since these seem to be deliberate designs that Paizo wouldn't dare change to keep balance with Animal Companions.
Sure, we don't know what the new Hexes and Patrons are going to be, and sure, we don't know the entire scope of changes to the Familiars, but if they are keeping with the same design paradigms, especially since Paizo doesn't think them to be problems (i.e. Familiars aren't combat creatures, Hexes have immunity timers, Patrons give your tradition and starter cantrip), it's just going to be more of the same failures as before.
The amount of people who have clamored for the Witch to be the Hex class and not the Familiar class should have been the wake up call Paizo needed to adhere to and actually lean into the feature that players have expressly stated they wanted more of/better, and not treat it as a bluff from the player base to double down on already weak mechanics into things that are mediocre at the absolute peak levels of optimization.
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Giving them an ability that doesn't always apply, or isn't always helpful, or is dependent on an enemy's rolls is a bad concept
So, giving anyone an ability other than magic missile is a bad concept then? Because every other ability doesn't always apply, isn't always helpful, or is dependent on an enemy (or a PCs) roll. Even something as basic as a melee strike depends on you being in range and rolling well. Ranged strikes and spells (even magic missile) trigger attacks of opportunity. This is silly.
And requiring certain action conditions to be met and therefore not being usable every turn isn't bad design either. That's part of what being a tactical game entails.
Giving them an ability that doesn't always apply, or isn't always helpful, or is dependent on an enemy's rolls is a bad concept
So, giving anyone an ability other than magic missile is a bad concept then? Because every other ability doesn't always apply, isn't always helpful, or is dependent on an enemy (or a PCs) roll. Even something as basic as a melee strike depends on you being in range and rolling well. Ranged strikes and spells (even magic missile) trigger attacks of opportunity. This is silly.
And requiring certain action conditions to be met and therefore not being usable every turn isn't bad design either. That's part of what being a tactical game entails.
There is a difference when there are other viable tactical options available. What tactical options are there for the Familiar besides this one ability they get from their Patron choice? It can't Strike. It can't reasonably perform skill activities like Demoralize (at least, not in the higher levels, since it doesn't evolve beyond Trained, and it lacks skill feat support). It can't activate items to aid party members or inhibit the enemy. That's a large amount of useful combat activities that it can't perform, and the rest aren't really relevant. This is basically the only in-combat activity it can do that isn't just a matter of action economy manipulation (of which there is very little to exploit, by design), so yes, I'm going to call it out as being a bad thing by lack of reliability, because there is no alternative to fall back on, and its benefit isn't so powerful that it requires a lack of reliability to maintain its balance.
Comparatively, there are alternatives to the likes of Magic Missile, and those things do indeed lose (and increase) value when dice rolls become less and less (or more and more) favorable, but that's by design. This isn't the case for this ability, as it's predicated on a separate entity to function, and isn't just an activatable thing. For example, how many people would still say Magic Missile is a good spell if you were required to succeed at a Demoralize check on an enemy before you could use the spell on them? Not many, I imagine. At best this would force people to emphasize Charisma more (at the cost of other important attributes) and sink skill increases/feats into Intimidate, and at worst it makes the spell not worth taking due to this apparent required skill.