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My reading of this, by RAW, is that it works.
Here is my reasoning.
The soulfire weapon fusion says it can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. This is a specific rule overriding the general case that fusions apply to weapons. (A solarian weapon crystal isn't a weapon.)
The description of soulfire:
"The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus."
There is nothing in this description that indicates that the weapon the soulfired crystal is put into is gaining a fusion.
I.e., the "though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm" clause is not triggered, because the flare is not gaining a weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion.
The solar flare is being slotted with a weapon crystal which happens to have an additional effect that "When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done...".
Morikthead,
If you're going to argue that the infusion is applied to the crystal not the solar flare it's self defeating. You wouldn't list infusions as something that aren't supposed to be applied to the solar flare because the solar flare could NEVER get infusions. There is no reason to state that the solar flare can't benefit from infusions unless it means that it can't benefit from unfusions placed on its crystal.
Either there is no disctinction between the solar flare and the weapon crystal (in which case the rule applies) or the solar flare is its own thing (in which case no fusion can apply)
Ok I did some more reading, including https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ukv9?Can-You-Put-a-Fusion-on-a-Solarian-Weapo n#50
By RAW then, it appears:
1. You can apply fusions directly to solar weapons.
Reasoning:
'Your solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon', or for flare, 'Your solar flare functions as a one-handed uncategorized small arm'.
2. You can apply fusions directly to solarian weapon crystals.
Reasoning: They are listed in the weapons section (though, to be fair, so are critical hit effects, special properties, and accessories, none of which are actually weapons), and Owen says so.
3: The fusion limits on weapons would apply separately to the solar weapon & the crystal, as each is a distinct weapon.
(Does anyone know if a gun that has fusions up to its limit on it, is able to use ammunition that also has a fusion on it, if the combined level of weapon & ammo fusions is > weapon level?)
4: Most fusions are useless on a solarian weapon crystal.
E.g.,
Seeking fusion
" The seeking fusion causes an attack from a weapon to veer toward its target..."
Since you aren't attacking with the crystal itself, this has no effect.
(But you could put seeking fusion directly on your solar weapon/solar flare.)
Dispelling fusion would work:
"The weapon gains dispelling as a critical hit effect in combat"
And: "If a solarian crystal lists a critical effect, that critical effect applies to any critical hit the solar weapon makes while the solarian crystal is within the solarian’s mote."
Durable fusion would make the crystal harder to break.
Fusions that can only be applied to "X", if X doesn't include solarian weapon crystals, would not be able to be put on a crystal.
So the interposing fusion cannot go on a crystal at all (and even if it could, it would have no effect since it applies when you attack with the fused weapon, and you don't attack with weapon crystals).
But you could put the interposing fusion directly on your solar weapon (not on a solar flare, due to interposing being melee only).
5: So, soulfire fusion.
It isn't being directly applied to the solar flare, so the prohibition that it can only be applied to weapon crystals is irrelevant for the purposes of "can’t gain... weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm", because the solar flare is not gaining a fusion--the weapon crystal is.
As far as I can tell this should work by RAW.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Morikthead,
If you're going to argue that the infusion is applied to the crystal not the solar flare it's self defeating. You wouldn't list infusions as something that aren't supposed to be applied to the solar flare because the solar flare could NEVER get infusions. There is no reason to state that the solar flare can't benefit from infusions unless it means that it can't benefit from infusions placed on its crystal.
No crystal currently grants weapon special properties, critical hit effects, or fusions. (Unless I missed one, which is possible.)
If in the future some new crystal granted, say, the reach property, that crystal would not be applicable to the solar flare, as reach is a melee-only property.
As far as I can tell, the 'fusions' part of that 'can't gain...' statement would only apply to some new thing that:
- Specifically affects solar weapons
- AND, grants the solar weapon a weapon fusion
- AND the granted fusion cannot be applied to a small arm.
As far as I'm aware, there is currently nothing that would trigger this. (Just as there is nothing that specifically affects solar weapons and grants a critical hit effect or weapon property that cannot be applied to small arms.)
There is no rule (as far as I'm aware) that fusions applied to a weapon crystal are treated as if you are applying that fusion to the crystal-augmented weapon.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Either there is no disctinction between the solar flare and the weapon crystal (in which case the rule applies) or the solar flare is its own thing (in which case no fusion can apply)
What is your reasoning for the last statement? '(in which case no fusion can apply)'?
From the class rules:
"Your solar flare functions as a one-handed uncategorized small arm..."
Small arms may have fusions added to them.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Wait... you're claiming that "by RAW" you can apply fusions to a solar weapon, which has no item level?
No.
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I realize the rules are a bit unpolished, but I think you may be going a bit mad, Morik.
Your fist functions as an uncategorized basic melee weapon, but you can't apply a fusion to it.
You can't apply fusions to a solar weapon or solar flare directly. Just because it functions as a weapon doesn't mean it is one in all senses of the word. And you're missing a ton of information about it, which you'd have to make a lot of assumptions for. IF you could apply fusions: What item level is your solar weapon? What does it cost to enchant it? How would fusion seals work with it?
HammerJack wrote: Wait... you're claiming that "by RAW" you can apply fusions to a solar weapon, which has no item level?
No.
Ah, I missed that it doesn't have an item level in its description...
I do note that there is "In Starfinder, all armor, equipment, and weapons (whether magic, technological, or hybrid) are assigned an item level."
There doesn't seem to be a fallthrough clause for how to determine item level if one isn't mentioned, though...
How do weapon special properties which allow a saving throw from the victim determine DCs when applied by a solar weapon? The rule I see is "Some weapons that explode or cause critical hit effects (see page 182) allow the target to attempt a saving throw. The DC of such a saving throw is typically equal to 10 + half the weapon’s item level + one of your ability modifiers."
(Perhaps there is no current way to put such a property on a solar weapon?)
So then technically, you cannot use any fusion that says it can only be applied to a melee weapon (crystals aren't melee weapons), or only to a ranged weapon (crystals aren't a ranged weapon), etc.
And further, without a rule allowing fusions placed on a crystal to count attacks with the augmented weapon as if they were attacks with the crystal, many fusions are not going to do anything. E.g., seeking fusion could be applied to the crystal, but since you never make attacks with the crystal, it won't do anything. (But dispelling still works, as it adds a critical hit effect to the crystal, and there is a rule for gaining critical hit effects of the crystal when attacking with the solar weapon the crystal is augmenting.)
Still, technically, I would say soulfire works, again because there is nothing to indicate that fusions on a crystal are considered to be gained by the augmented weapon.
If some future content adds something that specifically affects solar weapons, grants a weapon fusion (that cannot be applied to small arms) to the solar weapon, then that would be prohibited by that "though..." clause.
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MorikTheMad wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there is currently nothing that would trigger this.
That that reading is a null set is pretty strong evidence against it.
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
It cannot gain a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm
Soulfire cannot be applied to a small arm.
Solar flare cannot gain soulfire.
There is no distinction between the crystal gaining the fusion and the weapon gaining the fusion. Creating one would require solar weapons not getting fusions at all.
Though, if we want to be pedantic about it, there is nothing in the fusion rules that state they cannot be applied to weapons that don't have item levels.
"A weapon fusion is a small, prepackaged add-on that can be attached to any weapon to infuse it with magic."
There are more specific rules limiting fusions to a subset of weapons (e.g., "can only be applied to melee weapons"), but no rule about what to do if there isn't an item level (such as your fist, or a solar weapon, both of which presumably fall into the category of "all weapons").
This sort of runs into a divide by 0 problem; what level of fusions can be installed, how much is the cost, etc, are all undefined when the item level is undefined. But the general rule about what fusions can be applied to is "any weapon".
Seems to be undefined territory... but not clearly disallowed by RAW. (Though there is no practical way to allow it without introducing house rules, since the instructions for pricing/installation/limits/etc all fall apart when item level is undefined.)
BigNorseWolf wrote: MorikTheMad wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there is currently nothing that would trigger this.
That that reading is a null set is pretty strong evidence against it.
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
It cannot gain a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm
Soulfire cannot be applied to a small arm.
Solar flare cannot gain soulfire.
There is no distinction between the crystal gaining the fusion and the weapon gaining the fusion. Creating one would require solar weapons not getting fusions at all.
Aren't the other two (critical hit effects & weapon special properties) null sets?
EDIT: I see that they are not. However, I still do not see any RAW interpretation that allows fusions on a crystal to be treated as if it were applied to the solar weapon. If you are arguing that the intent is there due to the statement about weapon fusions otherwise being a null set, that is fine, but it is arguing intent, not RAW.
I dispute this portion of your argument:
"There is no distinction between the crystal gaining the fusion and the weapon gaining the fusion."
There is no rule (as far as I'm aware) that fusions applied to a weapon crystal are treated as if you are applying that fusion to the crystal-augmented weapon.
If we can assume this is the case (that fusions on the crystal count as being applied to the weapon the crystal eventually ends up in), why can't we assume a solar weapon has an item level equal to your character's solarian class level?
The latter has more support in the rules, as far as I can tell, due to "In Starfinder, all armor, equipment, and weapons (whether magic, technological, or hybrid) are assigned an item level."
There is no more specific rule stating the solar weapon is an exception to the general rule that all weapons have an item level.
(I am not arguing for this interpretation--I'm just pointing out that this interpretation has a general rule stating there should be an item level, and so we can make some assumptions to shoe-horn an item level onto it since the rules don't give one--there is no rule stating that fusions on crystals augmenting a solar weapon are treated as if they were applied directly to the solar weapon. I don't see any support for shoe-horning that in.)
I.e., I think things work as I described in this prior post: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u8l&page=2?COM-Clarification-of-Intent-D oes-Soulfire#57
EDIT: How would you say bombarding fusion interacts with solar weapon by RAW?
"A grenade loaded into a weapon with the bombarding fusion cannot have an item level greater than the weapon’s item level. "
Would you say that anything which references a weapon's item level does not work with solar weapon?
BigNorseWolf wrote: MorikTheMad wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there is currently nothing that would trigger this.
That that reading is a null set is pretty strong evidence against it.
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
It cannot gain a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm
Soulfire cannot be applied to a small arm.
Solar flare cannot gain soulfire.
There is no distinction between the crystal gaining the fusion and the weapon gaining the fusion. Creating one would require solar weapons not getting fusions at all.
Another branch to discuss: Let's assume the above is correct for this branch of the discussion.
Can soulfire work on a solar weapon, despite not being able to be applied to a melee weapon?
If so (perhaps because solar weapon does not have that 'though' clause saying it can't get crit effects/weapon properties/fusions that can't be applied to melee weapons), then can the tactical fusion work on a solar weapon? If not, why not/what is different between the solar weapon gaining 'soulfire' (which can't be applied to a melee weapon), and the solar weapon gaining 'tactical' (which can't be applied to a melee weapon)?
Or would you say you can give it the tactical fusion, it just won't do anything since you cannot use 'covering fire' with a solar weapon?
There seem to be several possible ways to interpret the rules... I'm going to try to summarize my understanding so far. (Sorry for a bunch of posts in a row.)
The "though..." clause (referenced below several times), refers to: "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm."
1) Fusions are usually treated as applied to the mote, not the crystal, while the crystal is augmenting the mote.
- Any fusion may be applied to a solarian weapon crystal, regardless of fusion application restrictions (though such restrictions are only ignored at application time--if a fusion is restricted such that it normally couldn't be applied to a weapon crystal, that fusion has no effect while the crystal is not in a mote). E.g., "can only be applied to melee weapons" can still be put on a crystal, as could "can only be applied to weapons that deal bludgeoning damage". And a durability fusion would increase a crystal's hardness while the crystal is outside of a mote.
- When the crystal is used to augment a mote, all fusions on the crystal are treated as applied to the mote, with the following caveats:
i) The mote must meet the application requirements of the fusion--if it does not, the fusion is inactive. (E.g., if you have a solar weapon dealing piercing damage, a Knockdown fusion from the crystal will be inactive.) An application requirement restricting the fusion to solarian weapon crystals is considered met by a weapon that is augmented with a solarian weapon crystal. (Without that last sentence, you can't use soulfire on any mote, as no mote is a solarian weapon crystal.)
ii) Any fusion which references undefined statistics (such as item level, item hp, item hardness) of a mote is inactive. E.g., Agonizing fusion does not work with motes, nor does Bombardment fusion.
1b) Alternatively, remove 'i)' above. This means the mote may ignore any fusion application requirements as a general rule. That obviously doesn't work (e.g., you can't install knockdown on a piercing solar weapon).
So you have to meet the requirements... so either the 'restriction to solar weapon crystals' is considered met by a mote, or it doesn't work with solar weapon either. Unless you consider the 'though' clause more specific, thus overriding, the 'this requirement is met by motes augmented by a crystal'.
1c) Instead of 'ii)', treat the mote as if its item level were equal to the solarian class level for the purposes of such effects. (But you still can't install fusions directly into it.) This allows bombardment/agonizing/etc to be used.
2) Fusions only work on the crystal itself.
- Critical hit effects granted by the fusion transfer to the mote due to the specific rule about such effects in the description of solarian weapon crystals.
- Effects which modify an attack made with the fused weapon do not function.
- Fusions put on a crystal must be compatible with the crystal itself. E.g., a fusion that can only be applied to a melee weapon cannot be applied to a solarian weapon crystal.
This means the language in the "though..." clause about weapon fusions doesn't apply to any currently existing content... which is a red flag. But as far as I can tell this is the correct RAW interpretation, without making any assumptions other than that fusions may be applied to solarian weapon crystals in general (which we have a dev post saying is the case).
3) Fusions work on both motes and, separately, solarean weapon crystals. The crystal's fusions are treated as in '2' above. The mote is treated as having an item level equal to the solarian class level for pricing fusions, determining fusion limits, and for the purposes of any fusion effects which reference the weapon's item level (such as Agonizing or Bombardment fusions).
("In Starfinder, all armor, equipment, and weapons (whether magic, technological, or hybrid) are assigned an item level."--so it has an item level, we just have to make some assumptions about what that item level is.)
3b) Add the level of each fusion applied to a mote & its augmenting crystal together, and compare to Max(crystal item level, mote item level) for determining fusion limits.
(For balance/intention of fusion limits.)
Morik the mad wrote: EDIT: I see that they are not. However, I still do not see any RAW interpretation that allows fusions on a crystal to be treated as if it were applied to the solar weapon. Then raw, you cannot apply the fusion to the solar weapon at all, because there is no item level. The putting the fusion on the solar crystal just lets you beat someone with the solar crystal better, and this soulfire will not go on the solar flare.
A sensible interpretation is that putting it on the fusion on the crystal is the same thing as putting it on the weapon. This means that the restriction on non small arm infusions going on the solar flare apply.
You cannot keep a consistent level of hairsplitting to reach your conclussion. You need to tapdance from sane to absolute raw and back again: thats not a fair and consistent method of reading the rules thats trying to get them to give a pre determined answer.
Picking apart the rules so that there's some difference between putting the fusion on the weapon or crystal so that the prohibition doesn't apply is hairsplitting, not the raw.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
A sensible interpretation is that putting it on the fusion on the crystal is the same thing as putting it on the weapon.
Great, so #1 in the post right above yours. (Which maybe you haven't read yet, I did post several and that quote of mine was from an older one.)
BigNorseWolf wrote:
This means that the restriction on non small arm infusions going on the solar flare apply.
To sum up what I said in #1 in the post above yours:
Solar weapon is not a solarian weapon crystal (swc). Why is it able to ignore this requirement? Can it ignore other requirements of fusions? No, it cannot.
So either being augmented with the swc counts as meeting this requirement, or soulfire cannot go on solar weapon either.
So then the only way it would not work on solar flare, but would work on a solar weapon, is if you consider that "though..." clause to be a more specific rule overriding the (assumed) rule that 'being augmented with a swc counts as being a swc for the purposes of meeting fusion requirements'.
I think the 'though...' clause is more general, and the 'only in swc' application requirement has an implied (and more specific) 'and being augmented with an swc counts as meeting this requirement'.
Morik the mad wrote: So then the only way it would not work on solar flare, but would work on a solar weapon, is if you consider that "though..." clause to be a more specific rule overriding the (assumed) rule that 'being augmented with a swc counts as being a swc for the purposes of meeting fusion requirements'. I don't see how it can't be read as anything but being more specific. "Though"
Anything that speficically effects solar weapons is going to be a bigger catagory than things that can't effect small arms.
Thats what though means, here's an exception to the thing I just said.
You don't wind up with a null set
You have reasonable restrictions
You don't need to make a large number of assumptions
There's a reason and meaning for those words being there.
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
Quote: If not, why not/what is different between the solar weapon gaining 'soulfire' (which can't be applied to a melee weapon), and the solar weapon gaining 'tactical' (which can't be applied to a melee weapon) Soulfire can be applied to a crystal but does not work with a pistol so it won't work on the solar flare.
Tactical CAN be applied to a crystal and works with a pistol so it can work with the solar flare
Tactical can be a applied to a crystal but will not WORK if you're using the solar weapon light saber.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Morik the mad wrote: So then the only way it would not work on solar flare, but would work on a solar weapon, is if you consider that "though..." clause to be a more specific rule overriding the (assumed) rule that 'being augmented with a swc counts as being a swc for the purposes of meeting fusion requirements'. I don't see how it can't be read as anything but being more specific. "Though"
Anything that speficically effects solar weapons is going to be a bigger catagory than things that can't effect small arms.
Thats what though means, here's an exception to the thing I just said.
You don't wind up with a null set
You have reasonable restrictions
You don't need to make a large number of assumptions
There's a reason and meaning for those words being there.
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
"Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm."
I think the intent is to call out/clarify that it can't pretend it is a melee weapon for those purposes, unlike for solarian class features in the prior sentence.
I agree that by a strict reading of the RAW, the though is indeed more specific (a caveat to) the prior rule that you can use things that specifically apply to solar weapons. But if you want to stick to strict RAW, fusions cannot be treated as applying to the solar weapon when they are on the crystal.
So make a reasonable assumption that they do in fact get treated as if they were applied to the solar weapon (and must be valid to be applied to it, no adding knockdown if the solar weapon doesn't do bludgeoning dmg).
But the soulfire text is written as if the effect applies directly to the crystal, not as if it were transferred to the weapon.
"When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus."
NOT: "When you make an attack with this weapon..."
I think it is reasonable to argue that this particular fusion's text (applying to the crystal, not the weapon) is more a specific rule compared to (the assumed) general rule that fusions on the crystal are treated as if they apply to the solar weapon, and so the fusion requirement is not actually checked against the solar weapon (nor the solar flare).
We are already in intention-reading territory when treating fusions as if they were applied to the solar weapon, and I believe the intention was not to add a restriction that doesn't have an analogue for the solar weapon, but just to clarify that the flare counts as a small arm, not a melee weapon, for non-solarian class features affecting solar weapons. Personally I'd go with either, 'assume fusions are treated as if applied to the mote, assume soulfire is not restricted to melee weapons and so does work on flare', or 'fusions don't transfer, they only apply to the crystal, the intention was probably something else given the language in the 'though' statement, but by RAW they only apply to the crystal itself.'
I don't think this is crystal clear, though. I would understand a GM ruling the other way around, since the though is in the clause that permits using weapon crystals in a solar flare at all.
Quote:
Soulfire can be applied to a crystal but does not work with a pistol so it won't work on the solar flare.
Tactical CAN be applied to a crystal and works with a pistol so it can work with the solar flare
Tactical can be a applied to a crystal but will not WORK if you're using the solar weapon light saber.
Soulfire can be applied to a crystal but does not work with a solar weapon light saber (because it only works on a crystal).
Obviously something else needs to come into consideration here, or it doesn't work with a solar weapon.
I just want everyone's opinion on this one, how unbalanced or bad would being able to apply a soul fire Fusion to the solar flare be?
It would be balanced to allow it.
The Artificer wrote: I just want everyone's opinion on this one, how unbalanced or bad would being able to apply a soul fire Fusion to the solar flare be? I think it makes the solarion the top ranged damage dealer (if they're not there already). Doubly so in a campaign where murdermart is kind of slow at getting you ranged weapon upgrades you want.
Morik the mad wrote: But the soulfire text is written as if the effect applies directly to the crystal, not as if it were transferred to the weapon.
"When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus."
NOT: "When you make an attack with this weapon..."
Because by that point the writers figured out there was some ambiguity in the player base about putting fusions on a solar weapon. so for a fusion specifically for going on a solar weapon they spelled it out.
Quote: I think it is reasonable to argue that this particular fusion's text (applying to the crystal, not the weapon) is more a specific rule compared to (the assumed) general rule that fusions on the crystal are treated as if they apply to the solar weapon, and so the fusion requirement is not actually checked against the solar weapon (nor the solar flare). Again, that isn't a reasonable argument because thats how EVERY fusion works with solarion weapons: otherwise every fusion BUT soulfire doesn't work.
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The Artificer wrote: I just want everyone's opinion on this one, how unbalanced or bad would being able to apply a soul fire Fusion to the solar flare be? By my math, soulfire makes the solar flare solarian the absolutely premier ranged damage dealer from levels 1-12, after which it gets outpaced at some levels by gunner harness heavy weapons sharpshooter soldier. If soulfire is not compatible with the solar flare, the sharpshooter soldier build is comparable at levels 1-12 and then pulls ahead at high levels.
It's mostly OK balance but there are some awkward spots. With solar flare and soulfire, a fully kitted out solarian does slightly better damage at range than the solar weapon solarian does in melee (At levels 5+). And on top of that, the solar flare solarian gets to full attack every round while the weapon solarian has to spend move actions getting to enemies.
You're not going to break anything by allowing it, but its definitely going to overshadow some melee PCs.
Well in the other thread we had the author saying what their intent was: that it works. Most of the objections here are about technical wording, but to answer the thread title, we know the intent.
While we were doing the AR research for COM we knew about it, because the author is also in the AR taskforce so could tell us what the intent was. Because of NDA, I couldn't say that here.
But when we sent our report to Thursty for his sanctioning decision, we'd made the recommendation based on our knowledge of the author's intent.
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My take on it is that unless and until a designer chimes in to say they meant the opposite of the author, that the author's intent is the best authority we have, and that it works.
Cellion wrote:
It's mostly OK balance but there are some awkward spots. With solar flare and soulfire, a fully kitted out solarian does slightly better damage at range than the solar weapon solarian does in melee (At levels 5+). And on top of that, the solar flare solarian gets to full attack every round while the weapon solarian has to spend move actions getting to enemies.
Uh...on top of that? If you're not taking that into account from the beginning then clearly the solar flare solarion does not do more damage than the solar weapon solarion. d4 + Cha + crystal << d6 + Cha + Str + crystal.
Additionally, any comparison of the solar flare to a ranged soldier needs to somehow account for the solar flare's variability. It greatly depends on whether you're using photon mode and plasma sheath for extra damage. You won't do that against fire resistant/immune things in many cases, and you may not want to do it at higher levels when things like mobile cover and 50% miss chances come along from graviton powers. It's not obvious whether the correct balance point is the high end of potential solar flare damage, the low end, or somewhere in between.
Ascalaphus wrote: Well in the other thread we had the author saying what their intent was: that it works. Most of the objections here are about technical wording, but to answer the thread title, we know the intent.
While we were doing the AR research for COM we knew about it, because the author is also in the AR taskforce so could tell us what the intent was. Because of NDA, I couldn't say that here.
But when we sent our report to Thursty for his sanctioning decision, we'd made the recommendation based on our knowledge of the author's intent.
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My take on it is that unless and until a designer chimes in to say they meant the opposite of the author, that the author's intent is the best authority we have, and that it works.
This is very strange. Notwithstanding the inability of many people to understand it, the language as published clearly does forbid soulfire to work with a solar flare. It's quite possible the developer reviewing the turnover thought about the soulfire issue, correctly interpreted the text, and accepted that's what he wanted.
In any case, it surely must be unprecedented for organized play to provide guidance to ignore a published rule in favor of intent, lacking any known errata in the pipeline from the rules development team.
Cellion wrote: By my math, soulfire makes the solar flare solarian the absolutely premier ranged damage dealer from levels 1-12, after which it gets outpaced at some levels by gunner harness heavy weapons sharpshooter soldier. When running the numbers, how often did you assume that the soldier would have an on level weapon?
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Ascalaphus wrote: Well in the other thread we had the author saying what their intent was: that it works. Most of the objections here are about technical wording, but to answer the thread title, we know the intent.
If I could pick between technical wording and non technical wording I would, but there is no way to read the words that are there to allow it.
Where's the other thread?
BigNorseWolf wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: Well in the other thread we had the author saying what their intent was: that it works. Most of the objections here are about technical wording, but to answer the thread title, we know the intent.
If I could pick between technical wording and non technical wording I would, but there is no way to read the words that are there to allow it.
Where's the other thread? Here
Xenocrat wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: Well in the other thread we had the author saying what their intent was: that it works. Most of the objections here are about technical wording, but to answer the thread title, we know the intent.
While we were doing the AR research for COM we knew about it, because the author is also in the AR taskforce so could tell us what the intent was. Because of NDA, I couldn't say that here.
But when we sent our report to Thursty for his sanctioning decision, we'd made the recommendation based on our knowledge of the author's intent.
---
My take on it is that unless and until a designer chimes in to say they meant the opposite of the author, that the author's intent is the best authority we have, and that it works.
This is very strange. Notwithstanding the inability of many people to understand it, the language as published clearly does forbid soulfire to work with a solar flare. It's quite possible the developer reviewing the turnover thought about the soulfire issue, correctly interpreted the text, and accepted that's what he wanted.
We've gone over this several times already in this thread and rehashing that would just be tedious. I'm not convinced that it forbids it, and you are, and neither of us has convinced the other. I think that's enough to conclude that it doesn't "clearly" forbid it :)
Likewise, what does it mean for a designer to correctly interpret the text? I think that correct interpretation means to understand what the author meant. Bonus points for realizing that the way the author expressed themselves could use tightening up.
Xenocrat wrote: In any case, it surely must be unprecedented for organized play to provide guidance to ignore a published rule in favor of intent, lacking any known errata in the pipeline from the rules development team. Oh, if you dig in the history of PFS1 you'll find precedents for just about every possible inconsistent practice. I'm not saying it's pretty, but it happens.
In this case, there was an enormous push to get the sanctioning out of the door before Christmas, with a clarifications document following "soon after". That's still not happened.
I'll give a simplified argument for why soulfire works with flare by RAW (or doesn't work with solar weapon either, which is reducto ad absurdium).
Does anyone dispute this general statement (not from the rulebook, these are my words):
"Unless there is specific text stating otherwise, a weapon can't gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to its weapon type."
Assuming the above statement is accepted as correct, lets move on:
"Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm."
This though clause is not adding a new rule that doesn't already exist. It is clarifying that unlike the prior sentence about solarian class features, the general rule is followed for these things--i.e., you treat the flare as a small arm for the purposes of crit effects, weapon special properties, and fusions.
The same rule applies to melee solar weapons. Or is anyone claiming that a melee solar weapon can gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon?
So, soulfire: how does it work with a melee solar weapon? If we treat fusions from the crystal as if applied to the mote itself, and if the mote doesn't meet the fusion requirements it cannot use the fusion, then the solar melee weapon cannot, by RAW, use soulfire.
A solar weapon is not a solarian weapon crystal, so it cannot gain that fusion--the fusion can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal.
This is an absurd conclusion--soulfire wouldn't be usable by anything.
So, for soulfire to work at all, something has to solve that problem.
The most reasonable interpretation I can come up with is that weapons that are augmented by a solarian weapon crystal count as meeting the soulfire fusion's requirements.
The argument that the 'though...' clause is a more specific rule preventing the solar flare from meeting the soulfire fusion's application requirement is incorrect. That 'though' clause is not adding a new rule. That rule already exists for every weapon in the game. The though clause is calling out that this general rule is in effect for things that aren't solarian class features.
Morikthemad wrote:
Quote: "Unless there is specific text stating otherwise, a weapon can't gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to its weapon type." That's a tautology. The problem with applying it to this situation is
What the heck kind of weapon is a solar flare?
If the rule is "a solar flare is a small arm" then it can't get soulfire, because soulfire won't go on a small arm.
If there was no rule there, there would be no guidance on what kind of fusions would or would not make sense on a solar flare.
The idea that it CAN"T possibly be spelling out something that's common sense in order to make a new rule and MUST simply be restating a rule is really really weird.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Morikthemad wrote: The argument that the 'though...' clause is a more specific rule preventing the solar flare from meeting the soulfire fusion's application requirement is incorrect. That 'though' clause is not adding a new rule. That rule already exists for every weapon in the game. This is just all sorts of wrong.
weapon special property that cannot be applied to a small arm: reach
Only melee weapons can have the reach special property. Wielding a weapon with reach gives you 10 feet of reach for attacks with that weapon. See Reach and Threatened Squares for more information.
critical hit effect that cannot be applied to a small arm
This is currently a nullset AFAIK
or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm
interposing, throwing, hindering....
I do not understand your post.
Are you saying that there is NOT a general rule, that a weapon cannot gain crit effects, weapon properties, or fusions that cannot be applied to its weapon type?
I am not saying that reach works on solar flare. It does not, because of the general rule that a weapon cannot gain weapon properties that cannot be applied to its weapon type. A solar flare is a small arm. Reach can only be applied to melee weapons. You cannot apply reach to solar flare.
What I am saying is that soul fusions's requirements cannot be met by the solar weapon, because the solar weapon isn't a crystal. So there must be something special about this requirement that soulfire only be applied to a weapon crystal. I.e., this particular fusion's requirements are a more specific rule that must allow a weapon augmented with the crystal to meet the requirements of the fusion.
If that isn't the case, soulfire cannot work with anything, because no solar weapon (or solar flare, or hypothetical solar boomerang, etc) is a solarian weapon crystal.
My argument is that the 'though' clause is NOT a more specific rule than the specific rule for how soulfire fusion works. That though clause is a clarification that the general rule of weapons only being able to gain fusions that can be applied to their weapon type applies to effects gained from things other than solarian class features (where the flare does get to pretend its a melee weapon).
Can you explain your justification for how soulfire is able to work with a solar melee weapon?
BigNorseWolf wrote: Morikthemad wrote:
Quote: "Unless there is specific text stating otherwise, a weapon can't gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to its weapon type." The problem with applying it to this situation is
What the heck kind of weapon is a solar flare?
If the rule is "a solar flare is a small arm" then it can't get soulfire, because soulfire won't go on a small arm. This exact same argument applies to the solar melee weapon.
What kind of weapon is a solar melee weapon? It is an advanced melee wepaon. Soulfire cannot go on an advanced melee weapon.
Quote:
If there was no rule there, there would be no guidance on what kind of fusions would or would not make sense on a solar flare.
Is your position that the lack of such a statement on solar melee weapon means that you can put any fusion you like on the solar melee weapon, regardless of the fusion's requirements?
Quote:
The idea that it CAN"T possibly be spelling out something that's common sense in order to make a new rule and MUST simply be restating a rule is really really weird.
I'm not sure which thing you are referring to as "common sense"--that a solar flare is treated as a small arm for fusions? That same common sense applies to solar weapon--it is treated as an advanced melee weapon for fusions.
This is not a new rule specific to flare. Every weapon follows this rule.
So why are they stating this here? Because in the prior sentence they stated that a solar flare can act as a melee weapon when seeing if it can use a solarian class feature that is specific to melee weapons.
They are clarifying that you cannot have it act as a melee weapon for the purposes of fusions/properties that you get via a thing that affects solar weapons.
I do not think it is 'weird' to have written that there--without that language, "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way" would mean that a weapon crystal granting reach (which would work on a solar weapon) affects the flare in the same way.
Morikthemad wrote: I'm not sure which thing you are referring to as "common sense"--that a solar flare is treated as a small arm for fusions? Yes. (edit: although treating it as a general ranged weapon might work too)
Quote: That same common sense applies to solar weapon--it is treated as an advanced melee weapon for fusions.
This is not a new rule specific to flare. Every weapon follows this rule.
So why are they stating this here?
To spell it out and make it clear because common sense isn't common and isn't always applicable to the game. Without that rule being stated you can conclude, but don't KNOW, that a solar flare takes fusions as if it were a small arm.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Morikthemad wrote: I'm not sure which thing you are referring to as "common sense"--that a solar flare is treated as a small arm for fusions? Yes.
Quote: That same common sense applies to solar weapon--it is treated as an advanced melee weapon for fusions.
This is not a new rule specific to flare. Every weapon follows this rule.
So why are they stating this here?
To spell it out and make it clear because common sense isn't common and isn't always applicable to the game. Without that rule being stated you can conclude, but don't KNOW, that a solar flare takes fusions as if it were a small arm.
So: Please explain how soulfire fusion is able to work on a solar melee weapon.
Any argument that you cannot gain the benefit of soulfire fusion on a flare, because a flare is a small arm, not a solarian weapon crystal, also applies to a solar weapon.
A solar weapon cannot gain the benefit of a fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon. Do you agree with this statement?
If so, what is your rationale for why soulfire is able to work on a solar melee weapon?
Morik the mad wrote: A solar weapon cannot gain the benefit of a fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon. Do you agree with this statement?
If so, what is your rationale for why soulfire is able to work on a solar melee weapon?
Because the argument you're relying draws a distinction between the solar weapon and the crystal is hypertechnical bunk that the existence of soulfire as well as developer clarification refute.
Soulfire works on the solar melee weapon because the weapon and the crystal are the same thing. The crystal is the weapon, the weapon is the crystal.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Morik the mad wrote: A solar weapon cannot gain the benefit of a fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon. Do you agree with this statement?
If so, what is your rationale for why soulfire is able to work on a solar melee weapon?
Because the argument you're relying draws a distinction between the solar weapon and the crystal is hypertechnical bunk that the existence of soulfire as well as developer clarification refute.
Soulfire works on the solar melee weapon because the weapon and the crystal are the same thing. The crystal is the weapon, the weapon is the crystal.
Umm, what?
Are you claiming that the solar weapon does not check the fusion application requirements of fusions that are on the crystal, because it is the same thing as the crystal?
So I can put a knockdown fusion on a crystal (because any fusion can go on a crystal?), and then use that crystal in the solar weapon, and this works even if the solar weapon does not deal bludgeoning damage?
No, the solar weapon checks fusion requirements.
Can a solar weapon gain a fusion that cannot be applied to an advanced melee weapon? --> NO, it cannot.
What is special about soulfire that bypasses this?
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Morik the mad wrote: Are you claiming that the solar weapon does not check the fusion application requirements of fusions that are on the crystal, because it is the same thing as the crystal? No.
The fusion needs to be able to go on the crystal (as far as I know, there's technically no reason any fusion can't BE PUT on the crystal)
In order to WORK the fusion needs to be able to work with whatever the crystal is doing.
Quote: So I can put a knockdown fusion on a crystal (because any fusion can go on a crystal?), and then use that crystal in the solar weapon, and this works even if the solar weapon does not deal bludgeoning damage? Yes, you can put knockdown on a crystal
No, that property will not work unless you make your solar weapon bludgeoning (i think there's something that does this)
You just pick every level
Your Solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it. At 1st level, choose whether your Solar weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.
Quote: What is special about soulfire that bypasses this? Even ignoring common sense of what a fusion on a crystal does, this part.
When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion
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Ascalaphus wrote: We've gone over this several times already in this thread and rehashing that would just be tedious. I'm not convinced that it forbids it, and you are, and neither of us has convinced the other. I think that's enough to conclude that it doesn't "clearly" forbid it :) This is why we need a FAQ, and I encourage everyone to click the FAQ button if they haven't already. If the AR team has access to discussions that could get a developer to FAQ this, I would further recommend you exercise those and implore them to FAQ this.
I'm convinced the text does clearly forbid it, so I'm not going to allow it in any of the SFS games I run. If you, and others, are convinced the text doesn't, you're going to allow it in the SFS games you run. A player that plays in both of our games is going to have a drastically different experience. That isn't healthy for OP in general, and makes GM's that honestly feel like they're playing fairly and by the rules look like the 'bad guys' taking away players toys. That isn't fun for anyone. If it's allowed, it needs to be clearly and emphatically allowed.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Morik the mad wrote: Are you claiming that the solar weapon does not check the fusion application requirements of fusions that are on the crystal, because it is the same thing as the crystal? No.
The fusion needs to be able to go on the crystal (as far as I know, there's technically no reason any fusion can't BE PUT on the crystal)
In order to WORK the fusion needs to be able to work with whatever the crystal is doing.
Quote: So I can put a knockdown fusion on a crystal (because any fusion can go on a crystal?), and then use that crystal in the solar weapon, and this works even if the solar weapon does not deal bludgeoning damage? Yes, you can put knockdown on a crystal
No, that property will not work unless you make your solar weapon bludgeoning (i think there's something that does this)
You just pick every level
Your Solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it. At 1st level, choose whether your Solar weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.
Quote: What is special about soulfire that bypasses this? Even ignoring common sense of what a fusion on a crystal does, this part.
When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion
Do you agree with the following statement:
"A solar weapon may not gain fusions which can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon."
If you do agree, I do not understand why you think there is a difference between saying "soulfire can not be applied to a small arm, so it cannot work on solar flare" and "soulfire can not be applied to a melee weapon, so it cannot work on solar weapon".
Could you use this hypothetical fusion on a solar weapon? (My answer is 'no'.)
"Splitting fusion. This fusion may only be applied to small arms. When you make an attack with this weapon, you may choose to attack two targets instead of one target. If you do so, make one damage roll. Each target (if hit) takes half of the damage (rounded down)."
Why can't you use it on a solar weapon? Because a solar weapon is not a small arm.
What is your justification for claiming that by common sense, solar weapon does not check soulfire's application condition (which I agree with), but solar flare DOES check it?
This is the part of your argument I don't understand.
pithica42 wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: We've gone over this several times already in this thread and rehashing that would just be tedious. I'm not convinced that it forbids it, and you are, and neither of us has convinced the other. I think that's enough to conclude that it doesn't "clearly" forbid it :) This is why we need a FAQ, and I encourage everyone to click the FAQ button if they haven't already. If the AR team has access to discussions that could get a developer to FAQ this, I would further recommend you exercise those and implore them to FAQ this.
I'm convinced the text does clearly forbid it, so I'm not going to allow it in any of the SFS games I run. If you, and others, are convinced the text doesn't, you're going to allow it in the SFS games you run. A player that plays in both of our games is going to have a drastically different experience. That isn't healthy for OP in general, and makes GM's that honestly feel like they're playing fairly and by the rules look like the 'bad guys' taking away players toys. That isn't fun for anyone. If it's allowed, it needs to be clearly and emphatically allowed. Thanks I didn't know about the FAQ button.
This is my main concern--I am new to starfinder. I was introduced to it by a GM who runs SFS games. I asked him if soulfire works on solar flare, and he quoted both the solar flare section (with the 'though' statement included), and the soulfire text, and said "it clearly works by RAW". So it is allowed in his games.
What happens to this character if I want to use it in a session with a different GM who has the opposite reading? I guess worst case, I just pretend it is a non-functional fusion that is taking up space towards my fusion level limit? (Better case: Replace with equivalent level of permitted fusions for the session?)
Quote: If you do agree, I do not understand why you think there is a difference between saying "soulfire can not be applied to a small arm, so it cannot work on solar flare" and "soulfire can not be applied to a melee weapon, so it cannot work on solar weapon". Because you're reading a hypertechnical gotcha into the answer of your question that, for at least the fifth time, is not in the rules and is not in the rules paradigm I'm using.
Soulfire is written with the technicality that it goes on a crystal and not on a solar while other fusions are not largely i suspect because people weren't even sure that worked at the time . You read a distinction here without disallowing all other fusions. There is a difference in writing in order to be clearer. There is no difference in meaning that you are creating.
There's also the problem that if soulfire were written like a normal fusion, you could put it on a tactical pike and gain charisma to damage on any weapon. Its worded differently because its the ONLY thing thats meant to go on solar weapons and not anything else.
Neither I, or the rules, particularly care how you phrase whether the fusions is going on the rock or the weapon itself.
I have a pretty shiny rock solar crystal. I put a Knockdown enchantment on it.
Check legality: can the fusion go on the pretty shiny rock. Yes.
WhackWhack the melee solarion with a mallet weapon that deals bludgeoning damage picks it up
Can he gain knockdown. Yes. He has a solar mallet. it deals bludgeoning damage.
SliceSlice the melee solarion with a solar saber picks up the exact same pretty shiny rock. He does slashing damage. Can he gain knockdown?
No. His solar weapon deals slashing damage, it doesn't work.
PewPew the solar flare solarion picks it up. Does it work? not unless he someone makes his solar flare do bludgeoning damage.
I do not see how you see any other reading, much less what you're taking a chainsaw to to misread my position into impossibility. But you are trying really, really hard to get a particular answer and.. its not working.
Or to put it another way.
The solarion weapon crystal is, i think, the only weapon where you don't know what its properties are until the user picks it up. This makes the check for legality a multistage process rather than something done in the shop.
I think we are talking past each other a bit here...
I am not reading a hypertechnical gotcha into the answer.
I am not seeking a particular answer and trying to corkscrew my way into it.
I flipped my belief about whether this is legal by RAW several times while researching this prior to participating in this thread.
I am actually arguing in good faith here--I genuinely do not understand your position.
While I am not sure the following is supported by RAW, I am fine with this assumption:
Quote:
I have a pretty shiny rock solar crystal. I put a Knockdown enchantment on it.
Check legality: can the fusion go on the pretty shiny rock. Yes.
By RAW, knockdown can only go on weapons that deal bludgeoning dmg. This particular shiny rock does not deal bludgeoning dmg. But it is still legal to apply it to. It isn't clear to me that this works by RAW, but I agree it is a reasonable assumption given dev feedback that fusions can be put on crystals.
Quote:
I have a pretty shiny rock solar crystal. I put a Knockdown enchantment on it.
Check legality: can the fusion go on the pretty shiny rock. Yes.
WhackWhack the melee solarion with a mallet weapon that deals bludgeoning damage picks it up
Can he gain knockdown. Yes. He has a solar mallet. it deals bludgeoning damage.
SliceSlice the melee solarion with a solar saber picks up the exact same pretty shiny rock. He does slashing damage. Can he gain knockdown?
No. His solar weapon deals slashing damage, it doesn't work.
PewPew the solar flare solarion picks it up. Does it work? not unless he someone makes his solar flare do bludgeoning damage.
I do not disagree with any of the examples you gave in your prior post--I agree all of that is correct.
The process for applying a fusion seems to be:
- Put it on a crystal, always legal (unless specific text that it can't go on a crystal).
- Put the crystal in a weapon capable of being augmented with said crystal.
- Check that any fusions on the crystal are compatible with the augmented weapon. If they are, they work. If they aren't, they don't work.
(I think you agree that is the process--let me know if I am mistaken in this belief.)
Soulfire: Can it go on the pretty shiny rock? Yes.
WhackWhack the melee solarian with a solar weapon class feature puts the shiny rock into it.
Does soulfire function in this weapon?
EITHER:
- No, because a melee weapon is not a shiny rock
OR
- Yes, because it works in any weapon that can accept the shiny rock.
My impression is that you see this:
"Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm."
As saying, in essense: Solar flare works with everything that affects solar weapons, except things that can't be applied to a small arm.
And, you seem to be saying that solar weapon can also work with anything that affects solar weapons (yes, this is a tautology), but does not do any such checking that the thing works with a melee weapon.
(But I don't think you actually hold this position--I think you would say you cannot apply a ranged-only fusion to a solar weapon.)
I see that sentence as saying, in essence: You don't get to pretend this is a melee weapon for these effects--just like solar weapon cannot gain a fusion that can't affect melee weapons, a solar flare cannot gain a fusion that can't affect small arms.
An exception that works for solar weapons (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon), should work the same way for flare (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a small arm), because this exception is a more specific rule overriding the general rule that you cannot use fusions that aren't applicable to your weapon type.
The only way soulfire would work on solar weapon and not on solar flare is if the 'though' clause is read not as re-asserting the general rule about weapon type compatibility, but as specifically adding a limitation to solar flare that does not have an analogue for solar weapon. Such a reading just doesn't make sense to me--solar weapon CANNOT gain weapon fusions which can't be applied to melee weapons.
In other words, solar weapon has an implicit "you can't get crit effects/weapon properties/fusions that can't be applied to a melee weapon".
The exception that soulfire can work in solar weapons would override this general rule. I don't see how it is justified to say the soulfire exception wouldn't also override the same (explicit) rule for flare.
To summarize my confusion with interpretations that it doesn't work:
Solar weapon has an implicit rule that you cannot gain crit effects/weapon properties/fusions that can't be applied to a melee weapon. (Just as all weapons have this implicit rule.)
Solar flare has an explicit rule stating the same. Which, if it weren't there, would allow someone to claim that by RAW, the flare can use melee-only things since it affects the flare 'in the same way' as the solar weapon.
I.e., they both have this rule.
Soulfire is an exception to this rule; it can work on anything that can be augmented by the crystal it is fused to. (If it weren't an exception, it wouldn't work on solar weapon.)
The only way that it would work on the melee solar weapon, but NOT work on the flare, is if you are reading the explicit flare rule as a more specific rule (so NOT overridden by the soulfire exception to weapon-type compatibility check), and yet maintaining that the implicit rule on solar weapon is a more general rule (so does get overridden by the soulfire exception).
I don't understand how you can classify the implicit solar weapon rule as more general than soulfire fusion's exception, but classify the explicit solar flare rule as more specific than the soulfire fusion's exception.
Quote: but does not do any such checking that the thing works with a melee weapon. I am absolutely NOT saying that and it should be absolutely clear that I am not saying that. Otherwise I wouldn't have the tactical example above.
I am saying you do not check for legality when you put the enchantment on the crystal you DO check for legality when you use the solar manifestation
bignorsewolf wrote: Tactical CAN be applied to a crystal and works with a pistol so it can work with the solar flare
Tactical can be a applied to a crystal but will not WORK if you're using the solar weapon light saber.
Quote: An exception that works for solar weapons (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon) Soulfire does not have that restriction.
Quote: should work the same way for flare (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a small arm), because this exception is a more specific rule overriding the general rule that you cannot use fusions that aren't applicable to your weapon type. No.
The "though" makes the small arms only grammatically the more specific case.
Trying to read the rules the other way gets you the words saying absolutely nothing. Theres no reason for them to be there, at all.
Soulfire may be an intended exception but it does not work by whats written.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Quote: but does not do any such checking that the thing works with a melee weapon. I am absolutely NOT saying that and it should be absolutely clear that I am not saying that. Otherwise I wouldn't have the tactical example above.
I am saying you do not check for legality when you put the enchantment on the crystal you DO check for legality when you use the solar manifestation
I don't disagree with any of that.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Tactical CAN be applied to a crystal and works with a pistol so it can work with the solar flare
Tactical can be a applied to a crystal but will not WORK if you're using the solar weapon light saber.
I don't disagree with any of that.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Quote: An exception that works for solar weapons (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon) Soulfire does not have that restriction.
Wait, are you arguing that "can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal" means "can't be applied to a small arm", but does NOT mean "can't be applied to a melee weapon"?
If you are not saying that, I do not understand what you mean by "does not have that restriction".
From an earlier post of yours:
Quote: Soulfire does not apply to small arms. Soulfire also does not apply to melee weapons.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote: should work the same way for flare (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a small arm), because this exception is a more specific rule overriding the general rule that you cannot use fusions that aren't applicable to your weapon type. No.
The "though" makes the small arms only grammatically the more specific case.
Trying to read the rules the other way gets you the words saying absolutely nothing. Theres no reason for them to be there, at all.
Soulfire may be an intended exception but it does not work by whats written.
I don't understand what you mean by "only grammatically the more specific case".
I am claiming that the specificity of "the flare cannot gain fusions that can't be applied to a small arm" (A) is at the same level of specificity as the implicit "the solar weapon can't get fusions that can't be applied to a melee weapon" (B).
I.e., if soulfire (C) can override B for the solar melee weapon because C is a more specific rule than B, then C can also override A for the same reason.
Are you saying you read the flare rule about not gaining fusions that can't go on small arms as being a more specific rule than the general rule that weapons cannot gain fusions that can't go on their weapon type, AND as a more specific rule than whatever special exception we assume to allow soulfire to be used on a solar melee weapon?
*Is once again glad he banned Solarians from his campaign*
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Metaphysician wrote: *Is once again glad he banned Solarians from his campaign* That's pretty dumb.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
swoosh wrote: Metaphysician wrote: *Is once again glad he banned Solarians from his campaign* That's pretty dumb. It's not the move I would make, but more importantly: That doesn't matter, because it isn't my table.
This thread has become enough of a mess already. Let's not make it even worse with unproductive sniping.
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MorikTheMad wrote:
Wait, are you arguing that "can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal" means "can't be applied to a small arm", but does NOT mean "can't be applied to a melee weapon"?
No.
Please stop trying to pick every answer apart for a nonsensical contradictory result. This is the 5th or 6th one that hasn't been said, hinted, or implied by anything I've said but that you've leaped on as if you'd found a flaw.
What I am saying is not complicated. It is very plain, it is very straightforward. You are darting from what is written through 12 layers of implication like a literature major that hasn't slept in a week.
Quote: If you are not saying that, I do not understand what you mean by "does not have that restriction". Soulfire does not have the restriction "can only go on melee weapons" it has the restriction "has to go on a solar crystal"
Quote: I don't understand what you mean by "only grammatically the more specific case". General: Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way,
Specific exception: though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
That is how the sentence is worded.
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