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OK. First, watch your traits. Both Flurry of Blows and Twin Takedown have the Flourish trait - so you can't use both on the same turn. Don't confuse Flourish with an ability that lists a frequency of once per round. Flourish will lock out all other Flourish actions, not just that one that you used.
With that out of the way, on to your actual question.
The Jousting trait will add a circumstance bonus to damage if you are mounted and move before making the attack.
The Horse Support Ability also adds a circumstance bonus to damage if you are mounted and move before making the attack.
So without any special rules, if you are mounted on a horse, move, and make an attack with a Jousting weapon, the circumstance bonuses would not stack. Because bonuses of the same type do not stack.
So instead what is written in the Horse ability is that if you happen to fall into this scenario, the Horse's normal bonus is ignored, and you increase the circumstance bonus of the Jousting trait by 2. Note that this is a fixed value increase coming from the Horse benefit rather than a number based on the number of damage dice of the weapon. So it doesn't add +2 per die to each die of the Jousting weapon.
Also, the Jousting trait does only apply to the first strike after the move. The Horse benefit lasts for all Strikes until the start of the next round - so all future Strikes that round and any reaction Strikes too. Personally I would rule that if you are using a Jousting weapon on a Horse you could use the Jousting trait for the first attack (with the increased damage from the Horse ability), then continue using the Horse benefit bonus alone for the rest of the attacks.
In particular, if you are using a weapon with one damage die and move before the attack:
A Jousting weapon (mounted on something other than a horse) will add +1 damage to the attack after you move.
Being mounted on a horse (not using a Jousting weapon) will add +2 damage to all Strikes for the rest of your turn and all reaction attacks.
Being mounted on a horse and using a Jousting weapon will add +3 damage to the first attack after you move. And I would let it add +2 damage to the rest of the Strikes for the rest of your turn.
Hmm... I can see it being a bit unclear. 'a melee Strike' could mean a single one, or each one individually.
With the addition of the 'until the start of your next turn' in the Horse benefit, that makes me think it is meaning each Strike individually if there are more than one.
If the horse benefit doesn't apply to each strike made after moving, then the only way that you would need the 'until the start of your next turn' line would be if you could somehow - while mounted - Stride, Strike, then Stride, Strike again.
I don't think that even Haste would let you do that. Because while you would have extra actions, you only command your Animal Companion once per turn. And an Animal Companion using its support ability is a one and done type of thing.
So it feels like Horse Support Benefit needs Errata for a fourth time.
If the horse benefit doesn't apply to each strike made after moving, then the only way that you would need the 'until the start of your next turn' line would be if you could somehow - while mounted - Stride, Strike, then Stride, Strike again.
I don't think that even Haste would let you do that. Because while you would have extra actions, you only command your Animal Companion once per turn. And an Animal Companion using its support ability is a one and done type of thing.
So it feels like Horse Support Benefit needs Errata for a fourth time.
the support action only needs to be used once, so yes I think you're right about a quickened horse being the only situation where the "until, etc." bit would come into play, though to be honest I'm not sure it's even necessary then. The writers thought it was though so maybe they envisioned an edge case where it was unclear or wanted to make sure we knew it would apply the whole turn
Rider 1 action: command an animal
Horse 1 action: support (all actions for the animal from now on can only be movement to get into position to support)
Horse 1 action: move
Rider 1 action: strike
Horse 1 action (quickened): move at least 10'
Rider 1 action: strike
That series of actions is not possible. With a quickened horse you still get:
Rider: Command Animal
Horse: takes 3 actions
Rider: takes more actions
The horse takes its actions when commanded.
Yeah. What this feels like is that the rule says that the benefit lasts until the start of your next turn, when what it really means is that it lasts until the end of your next action.
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Thanks everyone!
I didn't notice my animal companion mount support benefit could be interpreted as +2 for each attack or reaction in the round, and +3 if it's a jousting weapon, so that makes my pony considerably more useful.
Izzy
Well, I am mostly convinced that it isn't supposed to be used that way. The wording of the benefit is just rather odd.
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The horse's support is only applicable on Strike actions, not activities like Twin Takedown. The ability says "...on the action before a melee Strike...". This means it only applies to the Strike action, and only melee versions of them. If you use any other action that's not a Strike, it doesn't apply, even if the first thing you do in that activity is a Strike.
This was changed in the 3rd printing where it used to mention "attack", which applied to a wide variety of things, like Bows and even Spells.
Furthermore, the Jousting trait normally says to "add a circumstance bonus to damage for that attack equal to the number of damage dice for the weapon". The Horse support adds a circumstance bonus of 2 per die with the same conditions, so instead of applying the Horse's bonus, which would only be 2 damage per die, you increase the Jousting Trait's bonus by 2, resulting in 3 damage per damage die. Here's how the language is broken down:
-Add a circumstance bonus to damage for that Strike equal to twice the number of weapon damage dice.
-If your weapon already has the jousting weapon trait,
-THEN [increase the trait’s damage bonus by 2 per die] instead.
The "instead" is referencing the original bonus of adding 2 damage per die, not what Jousting normally adds. This is how they make the two stack, since normally they wouldn't since they're the same bonus type.
Cordell is technically correct. Which I hear is the best kind of correct, but I am not convinced of that.
If you Command your Horse to Stride at least 10 feet and use its support ability, and then use Twin Takedown which involves making two Strike actions - the first Strike action would check if you moved at least 10 feet while mounted during the action used right before the Strike. Unfortunately the action you used right before making the Strike was Twin Takedown and doesn't involve moving any distance.
It is an overly pessimistic and hostile reading of the rules, but it is strict RAW.
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Cordell is technically correct. Which I hear is the best kind of correct, but I am not convinced of that.
Futurama - You are technically correct, the best kind of correct
Support Benefit Until the start of your next turn, if you’re mounted on your horse and moved 10 feet or more on the action before a melee Strike, add a circumstance bonus to damage for that Strike equal to twice the number of weapon damage dice. If your weapon already has the jousting weapon trait, increase the trait’s damage bonus by 2 per die instead.
This benefits a Strike. Any melee Strike.
You swiftly attack your hunted prey with both weapons. Make two Strikes against your hunted prey, one with each of the required weapons. If both hit the same hunted prey, combine their damage for the purpose of its resistances and weaknesses. Apply your multiple attack penalty to each Strike normally.
This uses a Strike. It could apply.
The problem is the wording in the Horse's support benefit which says moved 10 feet or more on the action before a melee Strike
Is the timing important? They mentioned it, so it is.
So on the action before presumably you commanded the horse to move and the horse moved. Note that moving is the horse's action not yours.
What happens if the horse moved 20 feet, then kicked someone? Was that the action before? Totally unclear. You last action resulted in a move, but the last action that happened was actually that of the horse and it wasn't a move. Either way is a reasonable reading of it.
Setting that aside. Twin Takedown is an activity that costs a single action. It also contains 2 actions both of which are Strikes that could maybe qualify.
There are four types of actions: single actions, activities, reactions, and free actions.
So what is the answer? There are multiple answers depending on your assumptions. Don't blame me for this, blame Paizo.
What does the action before mean? It is totally unclear as Pazio has 3 meanings. Action being the 3 actions you get in a turn, or any action, but activites are also described as actions
Is it?
a) This is the 3rd action on my turn, and in the 2nd action of my turn I commanded my horse to move. So TwinTakedown works, for both Strikes. It doesn't matter whatever else happened action or activity wise. This is a loosey goosey way of reading the rule but it is perfectly fine natural language wise. This is how many people see it. Given that the rules are written in natural language this can reasonably be considered RAW
b) This is the last action I did of any action type? My last action was a Command animal that moved. Then my next action is the Activity Twin Takedown. Then my next action is Strike. But now my last action was an activity. So it doesn't work. If fact it can never work with an activity. Only a simple Strike action. This is what CK is saying. This is what many people think is RAW.
c) This is the last action that anyone did. So maybe if my horse moved and then stepped. I haven't moved 10 ft in the last action that happened so it doesn't apply. I can't even do a simple Strike, BTW this is a rules hellhole as your enemy could react to your move action and make the whole routine impossible. This is probably RAW if you are an evil lawyer.
Note that mounts act at different times. Animal Companions act in your turn with their actions. Normal mounts have their own initiative and act in a separate turn, not yours. (Exception being the Ride feat)
No I'm not a lawyer, my job at the moment is to build real software off requirements. So I'm used to dealing with unclear requirements. The author not understanding what they are asking for or what they wrote is my everyday. When I start actually building things I have to build something real.
Cordell is technically correct. Which I hear is the best kind of correct, but I am not convinced of that.Futurama - You are technically correct, the best kind of correct
I haven't watched Futurama, but I am aware of the meme. I just don't think it helps with a rules discussion and should instead be only used for telling jokes with.
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No I'm not a lawyer, my job at the moment is to build real software off requirements. So I'm used to dealing with unclear requirements. The author not understanding what they are asking for or what they wrote is my everyday. When I start actually building things I have to build something real.
Now imagine that you instead of having one requirements author giving unclear instructions, you have an uncountable number of clients giving contradictory requirements. You are not able to build in a formal language because the target environment wouldn't be able to understand it. And you can only test your code on a small and inaccurate subset of the target environment because the target environment isn't a computer but is instead a group of individual people that will be running your code.