Revealing Mist question

[jcheung]

Revealing Mist

Spoiler:

Kept in an airtight spray bottle, revealing mist is an alchemical concoction that creates a sticky and clinging mist of chemicals in a 15-foot cone when sprayed. It doesn't affect visibility but causes invisible creatures in the area to be concealed rather than undetected. Revealing mist is ineffective in water or in areas with other factors affecting the spread of the mist, as determined by the GM. It remains in the area for 1 minute or until any significant wind disperses it, whichever comes first.

Spent several minutes debating this in a session last night. Which of these viewpoints seem more correct, or can you offer another viewpoint?

- Creates a cloud of mist in a 15 ft cone that persists for 1 minute, revealing anything within the cloud. The mist then sticks to any invisible creatures and makes them concealed for a minute.

- Creates a cloud of mist in a 15 ft cone that persists for 1 minute, revealing anything that is within the cloud. The creatures return to invisibility on leaving the mist.

- Creates a cloud of mist in a 15 ft cone, sticking to creatures within the mist and revealing them for a minute.

We looked at some similar anti-invisibility stuff and couldn't come to a conclusion based on them.
See Invisibility/Dispel- Not Applicable.
Faerie Fire- Instantaneous, invisible>concealed for 5 minutes on affected creature.
Glitterdust- Instantaneous, invisible>concealed for duration on affected creature.
Powder- Instantaneous, invisible>concealed for duration on affected creature.
Revealing Stab- invisible> effectively concealed while weapon is target

[Gortle]

It is in the details of the item. The item creates an area.

causes invisible creatures in the area
and
It remains in the area for 1 minute

The invisible creature is only affected while in the area.

[Jared Walter 356]

I disagree. There is nothing in the text saying they become invisible again after leaving the area. I would run it as the first option.

[Gortle]

Jared Walter 356 wrote:

I disagree. There is nothing in the text saying they become invisible again after leaving the area. I would run it as the first option.

There is nothing to say they ever lose invisible in the first place. Just that their invisibility is treated different in the area.

[jcheung]

"causes invisible creatures in the area to be concealed rather than undetected"

it doesn't state if the creatures must remain in the area or not, but they do lose invisibility just like all the other anti-invisibility stuff

in the area =/= in the area

you can have creatures in the area affected when used, and this effect can apply to them regardless of if they're in the area while the duration exists

or you can have the area be affected when used, and creatures entering and exiting disturb it

[Jared Walter 356]

There is also this text from the invisible condition:
Other effects might make an invisible creature hidden or even observed but concealed.

[Gortle]

jcheung wrote:

"causes invisible creatures in the area to be concealed rather than undetected"

it doesn't state if the creatures must remain in the area or not, but they do lose invisibility just like all the other anti-invisibility stuff

in the area =/= in the area

you can have creatures in the area affected when used, and this effect can apply to them regardless of if they're in the area while the duration exists

or you can have the area be affected when used, and creatures entering and exiting disturb it

I see your issue, which is basically if this is an ongoing effect that travels with the creature that is affected by entering the area.

It is a valid question. My reasoning.

1) There is no saving throws/attack roll versus the creatures. The creatures are not the target or the effect. But rather the area is the target and the effect.

2) Area based effects that have no save, only have an effect on creatures while they are in the area.

3) It is not an instantaneous effect it has a duration.

4) The effect modifes a condition, not adds or removes a condition. So there is no condition like sickened or persistent damage to track.

5) Subordinate actions rule. The precendent set by this is that secondary effects don't happen unless there is a rule to say they happen. Basically unless the rule is explicit that the effect continues/something happens, then it doesn't happen.

Yes I agree this line of reasoning is largely convention.

[Cordell Kintner]

I agree that it would only affect creatures in the area. The item makes a static area of mist for one minute, which is supported by the line that states it can be blown away by strong wind. The line about making creatures in the area concealed does not list a duration, only saying that while in the area they are concealed. There's no reason to think the loss of invisibility would stay on the creature outside the area, as there's no duration listed for that effect.

For a similar effect such as Faerie Fire, it states "All creatures in the area when you cast the spell..." and then gives a duration of 5 minutes. This item has a completely different wording.

[jcheung]

just wanted to point out that just because it has a duration doesn't mean it's not instantaneous. that being said, i just realized that instantaneous is a PF1 trait, not PF2 so that has no bearing.

i suppose i should also make my personal stance clear, i'm with option 3

[Jared Walter 356]

Option 3 would be ok in my book, the only one that is clearly wrong is option 2. Conditions gained stat don't state a duration have the same duration as the effect that triggered the condition. In this case 1 minute.

They might still have the invisible condition, but undetected is specifically overwritten by concealed.

Conditions (CR618):
Some conditions override others. This is always specified in the entry for the overriding condition. When this happens, all effects of the overridden condition are suppressed until the overriding condition ends. The overridden condition’s duration continues to elapse, and it might run out while suppressed.

[breithauptclan]

This is the exact same rules ambiguity I have with Calm Emotions.

Calm Emotions discussion

Does an effect with an area and a duration continue to affect a creature that leaves the area?

So it is a bit funny that Gortle is arguing the exact opposite side of the argument in this case than in the other.

[ottdmk]

I think what clinches it for me is the following line:

Quote:

creates a sticky and clinging mist

Doesn't make sense to me that something "sticky and clinging" stops having an effect simply because you walk out of the area where you got tagged with it.

I think the most might actually be effective against anything invisible that wanders into it even after the initial activation.

[BloodandDust]

The mechanics and the description do seem to be a little at odds. The way I am reading it is that the spray bottle creates the mist, the mist hangs in the air for 1 minute, and any Undetected creatures in or passing through are revealed.

Feels like a clinging mist maybe should keep clinging to the creature for the duration, even if it moves out of the area (like glitterdust), but I don't think the rules support it (it's only invisible creatures in the area).

Oddly, it would have no effect on creatures that are merely Hidden, so don't try a Seek action before using the mist since it can only reveal Undetected creatures =)

FWIW I find Calm Emotions harder to parse. Very similar language, but instead of creating an area, which then affects targets, it says "You forcibly calm creatures...". IMO that means the attack is directly from Caster to Target Creature(s) and the area is just a restriction on target selection. It also suggests that the sustain is for the effect, rather than the area, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Alternately, the Caster could be creating a "Calm Emotions Area" which applies a calming condition on creatures in that area...in which case the sustain is to the area, not the effect.

[Gortle]

breithauptclan wrote:

This is the exact same rules ambiguity I have with Calm Emotions.

Calm Emotions discussion

Does an effect with an area and a duration continue to affect a creature that leaves the area?

So it is a bit funny that Gortle is arguing the exact opposite side of the argument in this case than in the other.

Er Calm Emotions has a will save for each creature.

There is no mention of the area being ongoing

Excuse me for having different opinions about different facts.

[Gortle]

ottdmk wrote:

I think what clinches it for me is the following line:

Quote:

creates a sticky and clinging mist

Doesn't make sense to me that something "sticky and clinging" stops having an effect simply because you walk out of the area where you got tagged with it.

I think the most might actually be effective against anything invisible that wanders into it even after the initial activation.

It is a good argument from the description. If you want to go that way just go that way. I'm all for trying to interpret the description. This is what a good GM should do.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah that's a bit odd item. Usually effects that will "stick" to you have clearer language that they affect creatures in the area when the effect starts, or that later enter. While effects that only happen while you're in the area shouldn't use descriptions like "clinging".

This one has to come down to GM ruling/eventual errata maybe. Right now reasonable people could decide either way.

BloodandDust wrote:

Oddly, it would have no effect on creatures that are merely Hidden, so don't try a Seek action before using the mist since it can only reveal Undetected creatures =)

That wording in the effect is a bit odd, but I think you're reading too much into it. I think it's just building on the description of the invisible condition:

Quote:

While invisible, you can't be seen. You're undetected to everyone. Creatures can Seek to attempt to detect you; if a creature succeeds at its Perception check against your Stealth DC, you become hidden to that creature until you Sneak to become undetected again. If you become invisible while someone can already see you, you start out hidden to the observer (instead of undetected) until you successfully Sneak. You can't become observed while invisible except via special abilities or magic.

Undetected is assumed to be the default state while invisible. That may be a bit naive because hearing is an imprecise sense:

Quote:

Hearing is an imprecise sense—it cannot detect the full range of detail that a precise sense can. You can usually sense a creature automatically with an imprecise sense, but it has the hidden condition instead of the observed condition. It might be undetected by you if it’s using Stealth or is in an environment that distorts the sense, such as a noisy room in the case of hearing. In those cases, you have to use the Seek basic action to detect the creature. At best, an imprecise sense can be used to make an undetected creature (or one you didn’t even know was there) merely hidden—it can’t make the creature observed.

If you're invisible and start moving around without Sneaking, you're going to make noise and be only hidden.

[Guntermench]

This is exactly like a discussion I had about Dirge of Doom recently.

[BloodandDust]

@Ascalaphus, I was only joking about the Hidden / Undetected bit =)

[jcheung]

Guntermench wrote:

This is exactly like a discussion I had about Dirge of Doom recently.

how'd that discussion go? because this one seems to have gone about nowhere with no real majority one way or the other