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I have been curious about this. What would be the "real world" equivalent to Brevoy. Have heard some say Russia, some say The Celts, some say The Cossacks.
From what I envision it, I would say....possibly Ukrainian Cossacks with a mix of the Celtic Highlands? I am interested to see what others' take on it would be.
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Maybe a little bit of a snarky answer but I do mean it to be helpful in as much as it can be: Whatever part of Earth that Westeros from A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones is based on. It may seem strange now, but when Paizo was designing the world, Brevoy was a love-letter to a little known fantasy series known for its politicking noble houses. Certainly since then, the series has garnered some level of notoriety, of course.
Personally, I heard Russia and it seems as applicable as anything to someone who knows very little about the history of Russia. It's no mytho-fantasy Russia like Irrisen, but it feels like there's enough of a Slavic ring to some of the names to act as at least a Russian texture over a Westerosi model.
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Personally, I heard Russia and it seems as applicable as anything to someone who knows very little about the history of Russia. It's no mytho-fantasy Russia like Irrisen, but it feels like there's enough of a Slavic ring to some of the names to act as at least a Russian texture over a Westerosi model.
Much though Russia might like it to be true, Russia isn't the only Slavic country in the world, and Brevoy's political setup and situation (being a confederation of two states under a weak monarchy with powerful noble houses) rings more than a little of Poland-Lithuania.
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Without wanting to sound dismissive, I think the fact you're saying it's a combination of two elements from opposite sides of Europe is a little telling.
I think it is based on the 'trope' of conqured nations (trope is in inverteds since obviously this is a real historical thing as well as an element of fantasy writing).
I really don't want to make it seem like I'm saying you're asking something wrong or bad, because I think it is an interesting question and hopefully opens the floor to a broader discussion of where this reflects history. But I also think it does a disservice to both real-world complexity and fantastical world building to want these things to have direct comparisons.
Obviously there are some areas of Golarion which are pretty apparently inspired by real world history. Osirion is maybe the clearest. But Galt isn't really inspired by France, so much as it's inspired by a particular period of French history. You can see elements of French history in the River Kingdoms, or Cheliax, or the Impossible Lands or even in Brevoy.
Ustalav has some inspiration from Central Europe, yes, but it's clearer influence is Gothic storytelling. Ibylos takes notes from areas of Greece, but is primarily a place for Epic storytelling.
So I personally think it's less useful to think of Brevoy in terms of what real-world history it resembles, and more about what stories and narratives it let's you explore.
Which is a long way of saying I agree it's Game of Thrones.
Brevoy gives me 18th century Russian vibes, honestly.
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Without wanting to sound dismissive...
So I personally think it's less useful to think of Brevoy in terms of what real-world history it resembles, and more about what stories and narratives it let's you explore.
Which is a long way of saying I agree it's Game of Thrones.
Never read the novel and stopped watching after "The Red Wedding." Wish a Companion or something could be published that covered the Houses of Brevoy more in depth. Since from my understanding, the AP only focuses on one or two of the Houses.
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LO: Legends has some strong hinting about Choral the Conqueror's nature and potential return, which has me hoping we'll get a proper Brevoy AP at some point. I think dealing with a returned dragon-king and the inevitable Brevic civil war sounds like a perfect 11-20 campaign.
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LO: Legends has some strong hinting about Choral the Conqueror's nature and potential return, which has me hoping we'll get a proper Brevoy AP at some point. I think dealing with a returned dragon-king and the inevitable Brevic civil war sounds like a perfect 11-20 campaign.
Sounds fun. Ever since 1e I have had an interest in Brevoy, specifically House Garess. I am of predominantly Celtic and Germanic descent and had been told at one time that Brevoy was probably the closest to the Highlands. Unfortunately, all I ever see is referring basically to just House Surtova and not much else.
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You're in the right neighborhood with eastern European kingdoms, given the very Slavic naming conventions of most of the NPCs we see there. TV Tropes in particular described it as a mashup of Westeros and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but I don't know enough about eastern European culture and history to say definitively, apart from that Polish sabre fencing would actually be a likely inspiration for the Aldori Swordlords...
If you're looking for something more like Celtic Britain, you actually may want to look further west: Places like Ireland and ancient Scotland were cited as inspiration for Old Sarkoris, and the Sarkorians were a clan-based society, ruled by clanlieges and it's where the Green Faith was founded, the druids there being the only ones who could gainsay a clanliege. Mendev, being Sarkoris' closest neighbor and where most of its refugees ended up when the Worldwound opened, probably feels very similar, especially as they intermingled with incoming Crusaders from places like Taldor and Cheliax, almost creating a Romano-British or possibly proto-Norman culture...
Just some food for thought!
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You're in the right neighborhood with eastern European kingdoms, given the very Slavic naming conventions of most of the NPCs we see there. TV Tropes in particular described it as a mashup of Westeros and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but I don't know enough about eastern European culture and history to say definitively, apart from that Polish sabre fencing would actually be a likely inspiration for the Aldori Swordlords...
If you're looking for something more like Celtic Britain, you actually may want to look further west: Places like Ireland and ancient Scotland were cited as inspiration for Old Sarkoris, and the Sarkorians were a clan-based society, ruled by clanlieges and it's where the Green Faith was founded, the druids there being the only ones who could gainsay a clanliege. Mendev, being Sarkoris' closest neighbor and where most of its refugees ended up when the Worldwound opened, probably feels very similar, especially as they intermingled with incoming Crusaders from places like Taldor and Cheliax, almost creating a Romano-British or possibly proto-Norman culture...
Just some food for thought!
Really? Cool, I never heard Sarkoris was more Gael-Celt. I might have to look into that then.
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Sarkorians have become a fun mix, between 1e’s Celtic vibe and 2e’s PNW Indigenous influences. The Kellids have broadly found such an identity beyond just being “northern barbarians” like one would expect in a shallower setting.
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Really? Cool, I never heard Sarkoris was more Gael-Celt. I might have to look into that then.You're in the right neighborhood with eastern European kingdoms, given the very Slavic naming conventions of most of the NPCs we see there. TV Tropes in particular described it as a mashup of Westeros and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but I don't know enough about eastern European culture and history to say definitively, apart from that Polish sabre fencing would actually be a likely inspiration for the Aldori Swordlords...
If you're looking for something more like Celtic Britain, you actually may want to look further west: Places like Ireland and ancient Scotland were cited as inspiration for Old Sarkoris, and the Sarkorians were a clan-based society, ruled by clanlieges and it's where the Green Faith was founded, the druids there being the only ones who could gainsay a clanliege. Mendev, being Sarkoris' closest neighbor and where most of its refugees ended up when the Worldwound opened, probably feels very similar, especially as they intermingled with incoming Crusaders from places like Taldor and Cheliax, almost creating a Romano-British or possibly proto-Norman culture...
Just some food for thought!
(Hours later) You're right. The names sited in the brief PathfinderWiki do sound more Gaelic in nature, along with the prevalence of druids and such....thanks for the suggestion.
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I have been curious about this. What would be the "real world" equivalent to Brevoy. Have heard some say Russia, some say The Celts, some say The Cossacks.
The Paizo developers have often stated that Golarion's nations are not "'real world' equivalent[s]" of any country on Earth.
That said, in many cases there are several real world influences to the various fantasy cultures; some stronger than others. However, attempting to "discover"/impose a direct "equivalent" will probably be somewhat fruitless.
Brevoy, along with Iobaria and Irrisen, have some Russian influences. Where Irrisen has more of a "fairy-tale" Russia flavor (at least partially because Baba Yaga created the nation with her daughters as rulers) and Iobaria is (probably) closer to Siberia/the Steppes, Brevoy has been confirmed as being heavily influenced by Game of Thrones; the feuding nobles and Restov do seem to correspond somewhat to pre-Mongol Kievan Rus and Novgorod, but not as an exact match. For example, the Aldori swordlords do not have a real world historical Russian equivalent that I know of.
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That said, in many cases there are several real world influences to the various fantasy cultures; some stronger than others. However, attempting to "discover"/impose a direct "equivalent" will probably be somewhat fruitless.
"Fruitless" is an interesting descriptor, because it presumes the search for real-world counterparts has some sort of purpose beyond its own sake. And it does! GMs have to run adventures in, and players have to play in, some sort of setting. Any number of GMs rely on companies like Paizo to build settings for them. But GM-built or canned, even the most lavishly-built settings must necessarily be thin compared to a real, living world. So we import a bunch of background assumptions about power structures, foodways and folkways, accents and slang, industry, markets and trade, microhistory, and so on that simply can't make it into setting material, and filling in these gaps with familiar real-world elements is as good a method as any, and better than most. See the section "But First, Why?" here. Or consider how Archpaladin Zousha was inspired to think about Aldori swordsmanship (which to my knowledge is never described anywhere in any but the vaguest terms, or else entirely in game-mechanical terms) in terms of Szabla fencing by comparison of Brevoy with Poland-Lithuania.
There are also a number of nations and states on Golarion that are meant to be, in part, representation for otherwise-marginalized nations or forgotten or misrepresented states, and in such cases it's important to get them right (Poland circa 2023 is probably not one of these generally speaking, given the security and geopolitical importance of the Polish state and the power of its army, but given the country's history of subjugation primarily though not exclusively by Russia, it might be sensitive not to conflate the two).
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I think it should be noted that in the thread Dragonchess Player (who makes a good point, don't get me wrong) linked James Jacobs agrees that "Russian Westeros" more or less describes Brevoy, although that was also 10 years ago. Make of that what you will.
I do like the Poland-Lithuania comparison regardless, though. It would hardly be the first time Golarion mashed up multiple cultures or polities as sources of inspiration. I'd probably draw on a bit of that if I ever ran a game set in Brevoy, which I think is what zimmerwald1915 is getting at--even in cases when something isn't a real world equivalent, having something to compare it to can be handy for fleshing stuff out unless the premise is totally fantastical i.e. Numeria. Treating the area around the Lake of Mists and Veils as vaguely Baltic-ish also works well with the nearby crusader state IMO (though of course that is again an area where direct equivalents don't always work...there weren't exactly demons in Livonia).
I see Iobaria as more Kievan Rus-like since Ulfen were involved in its foundation, but YMMV.