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For the Kingmaker campaign I'm GMing, I've came up with a complete re-write of the kingdom-building rules, inspired by the Fate RPG.
I've played in a Kingmaker game before (as a player), and so saw how the original kingdom-building rules tend to become a unwieldy when the realm grows beyond a certain point. The "zoom level" of the rules don't change, so even when you're running a dozen cities across three maps, the rules are still focussed around individual city improvements. Also, since both the bonus to the Kingdom checks and the DC for those checks are under the control of the players (based on how much they build improvements vs. how much they expand), given time it's fairly easy to arrange things so your kingdom can't fail any check on anything other than a 1, even with unrest.
So, prior to the realm-building stage of the game I'm GMing, I came up with these alternative rules:
Fate-based Realm Building: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zlo3ep1_g4DZGTh4mE3zH5G-Wa51i1yd1BXwv3d l0Rg/edit?usp=sharing.
Apologies for the size of the document... it's not because the rules are particularly complex, it's because I wrote them for my players, who hadn't read the original Kingdom building rules, so I spell everything out from scratch and include examples.
My players are still in RRR and their Barony is relatively small (10 hexes, two settlements) so the rules haven't yet been playtested into the late game where the original rules start to have problems. Still, it's been working for us so far, with the players pretty engaged with their roles in the realm. I was going to wait until they'd been more thoroughly tested, but I had a request to share them, so here they are.
Below is the TL;DR version, highlighting the rules' key features.
- There are ten realm skills, one for each leadership role: Loyalty, Stability, Law, Diplomacy, Military, Piety, Arcana, Intrigue, Economy and Patrols. The leader's best relevant stat bonus boosts the corresponding skill.
- As is common in Fate, the realm skills must be arranged in a "skill pyramid", requiring that each tier of skills have more skills in the next lower tier to "support" them. Thus, a given realm can only have a small number of peak skills, with most other skills in lower tiers.
- Growing settlements and claimed hexes contributes skill points towards improving the realm's skills, stacking the skill pyramid higher.
- Realms, settlements, regions and leaders also have Aspects, a key feature of Fate. Aspects are free-form phrases describing the advantageous (and not-so-advantageous) features of the thing in question, and can have mechanical impact when they are relevant. For example, the hexes of the Greenbelt region claimed so far might result in the region having the aspects "Moon Radish Patch" and "Fertile Plains", whereas a settlement founded at Oleg's could have "Oleg's Trading Post" as an aspect.
- The realm turn only has three easy-to-remember phases: an income phase, an action phase and an event phase.
- The action phase involves the realm leaders taking actions, which cost BP. Each leadership role has a specific list of actions they can take - for example, the Treasurer can Create Advantage, Overcome Issues, Deposit Wealth, Generate BPs or Solicit Capital, which are done using "their" realm skill, Economy. The General can roll the realm's Military skill to Create Advantage, Overcome Issues, Muster/Improve Armies or Capture Localities. It is through these actions that hexes are claimed, settlements are founded and improved, edicts are passed, armies are mustered and so on.
- In the event phase, the GM randomly picks one of the realm's current issues (which are aspects on the realm representing challenges the realm is facing) and "compels" it, causing some event to occur relating to that issue - it might be good, bad or indifferent. Additional issues can be compelled by the GM by spending Unrest.
- The realm's issues change over time - players can take Overcome actions to tackle them, with success removing the issue from play; the associated events will no longer occur in the Event phase, so the players can actively impact the events they have to deal with. The GM can also introduce new issues, either due to failed realm actions or due to plot events. This means that the possible events the players experience change organically over time as their realm evolves.
- To reduce book-keeping, I didn't want the rules to require tracking ongoing running costs which must be paid out of each turn's income, balancing consumption budgets for farms, hexes, settlements, armies etc. Instead, actions are assumed to include future administration of the change in question. However, the BP cost to take an action escalates the larger the realm is, and the more consecutive actions the players take in a turn. The DC for actions also increase the more ambitious the action (e.g. claiming multiple hexes in a single "Claim Winderness" action) or in other cases (the DC to recruit or improve an army is increased by all currently mustered armies).
To give an idea of a game in progress, here's a snapshot of the Barony of Greenbelt (yes, I know, I apologise for the name, blame my players).
Realm: Barony of Greenbelt
- Size: 20
- Aspects: Fair and Just Laws, Willing Hands
- Known Issues: Barely Established, Encroaching Wilderness, Hargulka's Monster Kingdom, Lord Scrivenen Sellemius, Nervous Neighbours, Realm Alignment (Chaotic Neutral), The Candlemere Horror, The Four Seasons, The Lumber Consortium
- Skills: Arcana +4, Diplomacy +8, Economy +7, Intrigue +4, Law +2, Loyalty +4, Military +3, Patrols +8, Piety +4, Stability +8
- Unrest: 2
- Treasury: 0 BPs
Region: The Greenbelt
- Size: 10 hexes
- Aspects: Fangberry Bushes, Fertile Plains, Gold Mine, Moon Radish Patch, Temple of the Elk
- Skill Advances: Patrols, Stability
Settlement: Haven
- Size: 4
- Aspects: Bokken the Adept Alchemist, Fat Norry's Food House
- Skill Advances: Economy
Settlement: Port Greengate
- Size: 6
- Aspects: Central Location, Ruined Fort
- Skill Advances: Diplomacy
Individual aspects: Last Stonebeard Royal, Mindless Optimism, Bastard Son of Nobility, Oracle of Earth, Ithildon's Irregulars, Tiressia and Falcos
Dotted for future reference.
This looks interesting and fun. Alas, my players' realm is over 50 hexes, and will be starting a heavily modified "The Varnhold Vanishing" once they have completed a heavily modified "The Realm of the Fellnight Queen." The campaign also has the "Mythic Adventures" ruleset so I don't think changing the Kingdom-Building Rules right now is fair to them. Currently they can only fail on a roll of 1, but that comes up more frequently than you think on Roll20, heh.
I'm thinking about possible "sabotage" behind the scenes by Pitax (or even Brevoy, because the Regent King has actually been charmed by Nyrissa to do what he can to slow the heroes' realm down - after all, she "convinced" him that the woman he truly wants to marry is the same woman that the Ruler of the heroes' realm has married, a woman from a minor branch of the main House of Lebeda - political intrigue abounds!).
Nevertheless, I will be examining these for inspiration! :)
Cheers!
CB out.
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Thanks, CB!
I've wondered about writing up a "converting existing kingdoms" section, but I don't have any good ideas about how to do a conversion in a faithful fashion. The systems are quite different.
One of the things I really like about GMing this version of the realm building rules is the concept of "issues". I reckon that idea could be yoinked and used to replace the event table in the standard rules without needing to move completely over to the Fate-based system. There would need to be some mechanism for players to overcome issues and remove them from the deck in order to get the full benefit of events that change over time, though.
In my game, I have 13 different issues currently in the pile, and two more sitting in the wings waiting for the right conditions to activate, each of which has its own little event table or sequence of events.
For example, I turned Dudemeister's Hargulka's Monster Kingdom into an issue, using each of his encounters as an event I could tick off on the issue card. I also made a small event table of Monster Kingdom badness which I could roll on if I drew the card and felt it wasn't a good time to advance the "plot".
For the Realm Alignment issue, I've done up a list of six adjectives for Good, Neutral and Evil, and six nouns for Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic. When that issue comes up, I take the realm's current alignment, roll 2d6 and see what sort of event I can come up with based on the combination I rolled.
Good: 1: Benign, 2: Selfless, 3: Generous: 4: Forgiving: 5: Altruistic, 6: Naive
Neutral: 1: Forgiving, 2: Well-intentioned, 3: Uncommitted, 4: Balanced, 5: Selfish, 6: Callous
Evil: 1. Malign, 2: Selfish, 3: Ruthless, 4: Violent, 5: Cruel, 6: Expedient
Lawful: 1: Oppression, 2: Judgmentalism, 3: Inflexibility, 4: Efficiency, 5: Obedience, 6. Organisation
Neutral: 1: Organisation, 2: Obedience, 3: Impartiality, 4: Apathy, 5: Criminals, 6: Innovation
Chaotic: 1. Recklessness, 2: Criminals, 3: Exceptional Individual, 4: Freedom, 5: Innovation, 6: Adaptability
(With the Fate-based rules, the players don't actually get to choose their realm's alignment. Instead, the alignment starts at the "average for the citizens", and the players can take actions to try to slowly shift their realm to the alignment they want.)
So far, their realm is still Chaotic Neutral (an alignment that suits none of them, although the Chaotic Good Witch is happier about it than the Lawful Good Paladin or the Lawful Neutral Baron). I've drawn the Alignment issue twice so far... the first time I rolled "Well-intentioned recklessness", so the event revolved around a group of citizens who resented the Baron's trade agreement with Hargulka and his evil trolls, and were gearing up to march south and try to show the trolls what-for. Due to how that played out, these citizens became the core of the Barony's first army, known as "The Baron's Conscience". The second time I rolled "Balanced Freedom", so the event involved some of the new immigrants being of Issian stock (taking "balanced" to mean "representation of the other side") who were being vocal in their support of Issia ("freedom" = speaking their minds freely) to the annoyance of the formerly Rostlandic citizens.
The one-shot events in RRR (with Grigory, and Kundal, and Malgorzata Niska, and the Rezbins) are each their own issue with their own sequence of escalating events. And some of the 3rd party modules I'm planning on running are also issues, with various hooks that can come up when the issue is drawn. Some of these events are incidental to the central problem of the issue, but act as an introduction of an NPC that will be significant later (such a Malgorzata).
I followed your work since you published your "Issue-Driven Kingdom Events" last year.
The Paizo rules were a fiasco for us. Even with Ultimate Campaign, it was such a chore to keep track of all the numbers, and so easy to crunch the stats and munchkin the kingdom, even unintentionally.
We finally switched to your ruleset a few months back (I don't recall where you shared the link to the Google Doc before). It was either that or abandoning the kingdom-building completely. We like the fact that the book-keeping is so limited.
I'll try to come back and share my experience soon.
First thought: my players were pretty desperate about the DCs.
A Warden with a CON of 16 would have +3 to his Patrols skill at first. Claiming a new hex needs a check of 15 (12 on the d20), so there was a 60% chance that they were investing BPs on that action for nothing AND gain Unrest or an issue.
I told them to create advantages, but creating an advantage is also a DC15 check.
Long story shor: we felt the random variable of the check was an hindrance.
We finally decided to use 2d10 instead of 1d20 for all kingdom rolls. The bell curve distribution makes them more secure of the outcome of their rolls, while keeping some incertainty.
I also felt the advantage should be easier to create to encourage them to make some and use them on subsequent rolls, so I dropped the DC to 12. All other DCs remained as written.
Now, the same Warden has 72% to succeed (a kinda marginal increase), as modifiers increase, the chance to succeed increases exponentially.
Second thought:
My players quickly found out that Economy was a must. Early on, boosting Economy gives you an extra action per turn, and later on, when the kingdom size increases, it ensures you are still able to take more than 1 action per turn.
I left it like that. I felt it's normal that an early kingdom would concentrate on building a sustainable economy. As a DM, I like the fact that they can make multiple actions per turn, because it's fun. And they are well aware that if they ONLY boost Economy, they'll have a lot of BPs to take a lot o actions... that they will all fail because of low skill bonuses.
Wow, I'm humbled, Chuckbab - thank you so much for the kind words!
I agree about the difficulty getting going at the start - my players had the same experience, struggling for a bit initially in their realm. We made two changes to the rules as a result... each PC starting with an Individual Aspect gave them some early aspects to get them started, as well as making the PCs more significant that other NPC leaders at the outset. The other change was the rule that they could choose to "succeed at a cost" if they failed a roll by 5 or less, which allowed them to actually make progress out of (high enough) failed rolls if they wanted to also take some consequences.
Hum, if there's someone else actually using my rules I'm going to have to be careful not to be so unilateral in my changes! I don't know if you noticed that I recently decided to slow the rate that the action cost grows... it went from 1 + size/10 (round up) to 1 + size/20 (round up).
I also cut out the mass combat rules and pasted them into a separate doc because I wanted to incorporate some of the improvements from Ultimate Battle into them, but didn't want my players to see them while the changes were only half-baked... here are links in case you need them:
Original Fate-based mass combat rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n_RmufFHYBjpvOdrUNktwrMdXhWLFz5OsKR0PNb vf8I/edit?usp=sharing
Work-in-progress version with Ultimate Battle bits: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10p5TMYmBFj8UBljM7WKpcdtTu1ptRsSg-L9vVz5 wqJ4/edit?usp=sharing
These are amazing, my game is on hiatus for a month or so and we're in the first book but I will definitely get my players to look over these rules!
We are on the first book, but im looking with interest your modified rules of kingdom building. I have posted a link to ur doc on our obsidian portal to let my players take a look to the rules.
Im very interested on using ur rules, so ill wait for ur battle rules doc to take a look at them when finished and probably use them too.
Thanks for ur contribution! Nice Job.
Thanks, folks! I hope they're useful to you!
Chuckbab, re-reading your post, it looks like your game had already embarked on the RRR/UC version of kingdom-building. How large was the players' realm when you made the switch to the Fate-based rules? How did you do it - did you convert the existing realm, or re-play the realm-building from the start again using the different system?
We didn't use UCam rules a lot IRL, but as the AP suggested, we played a year or so of kingdom turns before starting the "action" of RRR.
They had claimed a dozen of hex and had found two settlements (the capital at Oleg's and a small mining village at the Stag Lord's fort).
All claimed hex were converted to your rules without question, and I decided arbitrarily of the "development level" of their two settlements (size 4-5 for the capital and 2 for the second city, if I recall correctly).
I gave the settlements and regions free aspects with edges (and some twists), using the buildings and improvements they built in the old system as guidelines.
All PC leader could choose 2 free aspects with 1 edge each, and I gave NPC leaders aspects as well (Oleg had "Friends to the trappers" with one edge and Kesten had "Loyal to Issia" with one twist).
Due to their initial size, they chose two skill boosts (Economy and Law, which are logical for a new colony), and we proceed to continue as if Paizo's rules never existed.
We are approching the climax of RRR (using Dudemeister's Monster Kingdom), so mass combat and army creation is on the horizon. I'll keep you informed on how that works (especially Consumption as a penalty to Military checks).
Hey Rob!
We just finished RRR and I'll come back to you ASAP about how the mass combat and army stuff worked out.
In the meantime, I'm planning a pretty long downtime before VV (including some elements from Fellnight Queen). I have to get out the issue cards that have been sleeping for a couple of months of real time (we had a extended pause + the war itself didn't include any kingdom turn).
So I'm looking at my material and wondering if you could share some of your issue random tables? I have a lot of issue ideas, but I have trouble fleshing them out.
Thanks!
Really looking forward to getting into these when I have the time. My PC's "kingdom" is only five hexes at the moment.
Hi, Chuckbab. Here are all the issues currently in play in my game. I'll use [] to represent a checkbox.
As you can see, quite a few of them are just ideas for events that occur rather than having mechanics. I generally default to treating such events as Mixed - see what the players do in response, pick an appropriate realm skill, and get them to roll. The normal bad stuff happens if they fail, and they get some benefit if they succeed (an aspect with an edge or a bonus edge on an existing aspect, unless I can think of something else).
Some other events are hooks into stories for the PCs or just an opportunity to introduce a new NPC, rather than having any actual realm-level consequences.
Major realm issue, ideal skill to overcome: Stability (but when overcome, replaced with Barony/Duchy/Kingdom issue)
Roll 1d6:
1. (Special) Colonist influx: If 1d20 rolls <= realm size, gain 1d4 BP. Otherwise, gain a relevant new issue.
2. (Issue) Colonist shortage
3. (Issue) Bandits
4. (Problem) Frontier Justice
5. (Issue) Food/skill shortage
6. (Opportunity) Approached by venture capitalist
Significant realm issue, remains until at least half the claimed hexes do not border unclaimed hexes.
Roll 1d6:
1. (Problem) Monster attack
2. (Issue) Monster infiltration/lair
3. (Mixed) Wild animals
4. (Special/opportunity) Adventurers/Surveyors
5. (Problem) Population demands
6. (Mixed) Fey Entanglements
Significant realm issue representing the weather - never removed.
Roll 2d6, +2 in Summer, -2 in Winter.
<= 3: Attack (severe storm, flood, mudslide)
4-5: Issue (food shortage, crop damage, ongoing extreme weather)
6-8: Problem (animal seasonal behaviour, rising waters, storm)
9-10: Mixed (heatwave, unseasonable weather, prolonged rains)
>= 11: Opportunity (early thaw, good weather, bumper harvest)
Significant realm issue (never goes away, although alignment can be changed).
Roll d6 for each element of alignment, make up an event inspired by the combination:
Chaotic: 1. Recklessness, 2: Law-breaking, 3: Individualism, 4: Freedom, 5: Innovation, 6: Adaptability
Neutral: 1: Forgiving, 2: Well-intentioned, 3: Uncommitted, 4: Balanced, 5: Selfish, 6: Callous
Significant region issue
[] Loy and Latricia Rezbin ask if they may found Tatzlford. No immediate realm consequences if told yes or no (unless that hex has already been claimed, in which case yes = a free settlement)
If not allowed:
[] (Problem) Loy approaches with amended proposal.
[] (Problem) Rezbin supporters campaign on their behalf.
If/once allowed:
Starts as size 0, more if the PCs grant BPs & notable NPCs to assist.
Roll 1d3:
1. Tatzlford grows by 1 size, and sends a gift of BP
2. Tatzlford builds improvements in the region (e.g. a road to the Temple of the Elk), giving a free region aspect.
3. Tatzlford is attacked by monsters. If 1d6 rolls <= current size, repulsed (celebrations -> opportunity). Otherwise, town is damaged (problem).
(I discussed the background for this issue here)
Significant individual issue, add when largest settlement is size >= 3
Tick off events:
[] Doppleganger (shapeshifted into Kundal) kills his rival in the street and then flees, losing "his" axe in the process. PCs called in to sort out the mess.
[] The doppleganger's "father" dies.
[] The doppleganger's carpenter persona goes missing, it moves on.
Significant issue, added when largest settlement size >= 5, removed when defeated.
[] (Opportunity) The realm's first birth! Call the midwife!
[] (Special) If "Kundal"'s victim's widow was looked after, opportunity, otherwise she joined the cult - immediately do next event.
[] (Issue) A feud erupts between business partners over missing money and becomes ugly.
[] (Problem) A baby (not the first) suddenly turns into a monster and attacks. Citizens start speculating about Gyronna cultists.
[] Start rolling random events (1d6)
1. (Problem) Act of envy or spite
2. (Issue) Another feud
3. (Special) Rumours & accusations - add a free twist to all feuds.
4. (Problem) Another changeling baby monsters out.
5. (Special) Cult gains 1d3 new recruits, plus roll another event on 1d4.
6. (Special) One of the cultists becomes a cleric, or advances 1 level (max 3rd), plus roll another event on 1d4.
(Lord Sellemius is Restov's local envoy - he delivered their second charter to rule, and hangs around giving unwanted advice. He's actually a mixed aspect, because while being an issue he also came with a free edge)
Significant individual issue, remains until leaves/dies/recalled to Restov.
Roll 1d6:
1. (Problem) Demands better accommodation/luxuries/etc.
2. (Opportunity) Offers advice about some other known issue.
3. Invitation to an event at Restov.
4. (Problem) Takes exception to some decision the leaders have made.
5. (Opportunity) Introduces them to a venture capitalist.
6. (Mixed) Introduces them to a noble.
Significant realm issue, representing the pending civil war in Brevoy.
Tick off events:
[] In a public house in the PCs' realm (preferably when some are present), an old half-elven man sings a lament for those that died in the Valley of Fire, an old song that is banned in Brevoy.
[] An envoy from Issia comes visiting to sound out the PCs' attitudes.
[] A diplomatic overture from Varnhold and/or Drelev.
[] Rumours of actual violence occurring in the north.
[] Lord Sellemius recalled to Restov.
(This issue sets up the module Carrion Hill)
Significant issue, until resolved
Mark off events:
[] (Problem) A fisherman falls asleep in his boat, drifts into Candlemere lake, and is driven mad. Returns to town raving in the streets.
[] (Opportunity) Loremaster moves in, sets up a library
[] (Mixed) Another citizen driven mad, cleric offers to set up asylum
[repeat] (Problem) More strange lights and crazy people
(This one potentially leads them out of their realm and back to House Garess lands, which a few of my PCs have ties with.)
Tick off events:
[] Bram (PC dwarf) recognises some of the dwarves at the gold mine as belonging to the allegedly vanished clan from the Golushkin mountains. Investigation might lead them to discover & head off below plot.
[] News from Brevoy - Duke Howlan Garress & Toval "Garress" were both poisoned, Toval survived (duh, Dwarf). His adoption is being contested.
[] News from Brevoy - Wandering dwarves from the Five Kingdoms region move into the Golushkin dwarf hold.
[] News from Brevoy - King Nikolski ratifies Toval's adoption.
[] News from Brevoy - Toval starts to encroach on Lebeda lands to "avenge" Howland's death.
(This was an issue the players gained by using the Solicit Capital action)
Significant region issue until Erastus 4705, then major issue.
Roll 1d4:
1. (Problem) Logging angers the fey
2. (Issue) Consortium brings in undesirables
3. (Mixed) Lots of lumber traffic on the roads
4. (Opportunity) Business is good
They've also dealt with:
Significant realm issue, remove when defeated
Tick off appropriate event (from DudeMeister's thread), or roll on table:
Events:
[] The Monstrous Feast
[] Assault on the Faery Nest
[] Trolls and the Froggy King
[] On the Prowl.
[] Isle of the Lizard King
[] Attack!
[] Hargulka's Kingdom
Table (roll 1d4):
1. (Problem) Reports and rumours of trolls
2. (Issue) Refugees from farmlands
3. (Problem) Troll raids
4. (Problem) Assassination attempt
(Unfortunately I can't find the card. It had a series of escalating problems being caused by Grigory.)
Thanks a lot! I'll share some of mine later if I write something interesting.
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I'm rebooting as well having run it 8 years ago with another group, and my plan is to completely abandon any Kingdom building rules after Varnhold Vanishing (roughly 9th level), aka when the kingdom is likely to be over 50 hexes.
The homebrew Fate system seemed intriguing, but it's still a 35 page rulebook.
At roughly that 50 hex mark, a kingdom becomes a beast to track and no fun. By this size, it's up and running with little risk for catastrophe, making rolling dice largely superfluous and largely so you can justify raising an army when needed (as it was in the campaign).
Instead, I plan on assuming everything is "running fine" and incorporating "Stronghold Building," likely using the 5E Colville Strongholds and Followers. This way they're focused on something epic (that tower that lets them research major spells or gathering armies and followers). It has a combat mechanic for stronghold armies and his warfare book was delayed to 2021.
As for kingdom events, I'll keep making lists, but it'll be major stuff, such as adjudicating a trial of a local lord, or a fey incident.
Not sure that helps, but in any case, good luck to your heroes!
Hello!
If you'll pardon me, I would like to necro this thread once again. I am currently DMing a group playing Kingmaker adapted to DnD 5E edition. My PCs just killed the Stag Lord and I plan on using the Venture Capital stuff found on this forum and combine follow up on the Fate-based realm building rules. I discovered Fate by reading this subject and become more and more fond of it as I read about it.
I pretty much like the initial concept of the aspects and the scaling of the system to bigger realms. However, although Action BP costs do scale with level, the check DCs do not seem to. I fear that any realm big enough would have it easy to reach the DC20 associated with most actions.
Moreover, I don't find anything that penalizes a realm for 'growing too fast'. The bigger you are, the best skills you have and the easier it is to pass checks. I do find a reference to 'Consumption' in the very last page of the document ("Raise / Improve Armies: DC is the new Training DC of the army plus the realm’s Consumption. Success with style grants an army aspect or extra edge."), but it seems it has been removed from the 'core' rules (for simplicity). The only restriction I find to exponentially growing settlement is a mention to "a source of new immigrants". I plan on using this part to partially limit expansion at some point.
Did anybody effectively applied this system to a full-grown kingdom (>50 hexes) ? If so, are you willing to provide some feedback about its balancing ? Should I increase DCs with Kingdom size or is it intended that kingdoms are only afraid of other kingdoms sending big armies ? I don't have the feeling the latter option was in the initial concept.
PS: Big thanks to all the contributors on the forum. This is all great stuff for DMing a great AP and my main problem now is how I will be able to squeeze everything I like into one single campaign.