
eyelessgame |
I'm interpreting these the right way, right? My party of PCs has just reached 11th level...
Smite Evil (Su):
Aura of Justice (Su):
Holy Ice [Cleric/Oracle 5]
Does this mean that the holy ice spell cast by an 11th level cleric or oracle who's been given Aura of Justice by their 11th level paladin associate can spit eleven javelins at a boss target with this single spell, each one bypassing DR, each one getting the paladin's high-CHA bonus to hit, and then each javelin getting +11 to damage (+22 for evil outsiders)?
11th level characters, who focused on obtaining +6 headbands, for primary stats in the 24-26 range at this point in the campaign, provide this scenario: the cleric now gets +21 to hit (exclusive of bless, prayer, heroism, point-blank shot, or any other spells) with each of these 11 javelins, each bypassing DR and doing 1d6+12 damage.
I didn't miss anything here, did I? Just checking.

zza ni |

pretty sure it works like adding sneak attack to multi attack spell. the FAQ here say that:
"Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?
No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target)."
this spell is the same as in the 1st example "..You must succeed on attack rolls (one per javelin) to hit the target with the javelin.." they all shoot at the same time.
btw if it WAS ok with multiple simultaneous attacks you wouldn't need to go that far. just a paladin with a ring of telekinesis and 9 greatswords would do up to 9x(2d6+smite) (ring is cl 9).
to be fair the last one is still a very good way to deal a ranged 18d6+smite for a standard action...

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The javelins created by the spell deal "1d6 damage each, plus 1 point of cold damage and 1 point of damage from holy water. The javelins are destroyed by this attack". It doesn't state that it is piercing damage, so it is damage from a spell. You don't apply DR, you apply SR (the spell says SR: yes).
As it is an attack from a spell I think zza ni is correct about the smite evil damage applying only once.

zza ni |

while RAW it seem the javelin base damage is untyped, the fact they listed the bonus damage as +1 cold +1 holy water (to those who take damage from holy water, see the spell). it's wired to have 1d6 untyped and then 1 cold added to it, not to mention with a normal to hit and not touch attack.
It seem more likely that the javelins while made out of ice are meant to replicate normal javelin (it also has the same base damage of 1d6) so it wouldn't be too far fetched to house-rule them as 1d6 piercing +1 cold +1 holy water.
(and it would fit requiring a normal to hit. most untyped damage have ether no attack roll or touch attack like vampiric touch while most spells with a normal to hit use B\P\S as damage type such as stone discus etc)

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It seem more likely that the javelins while made out of ice are meant to replicate normal javelin (it also has the same base damage of 1d6) so it wouldn't be too far fetched to house-rule them as 1d6 piercing +1 cold +1 holy water.
It is the usual problem, we should go with how we think something is meant to work or go with what it says?
- If a spell doesn't say anything about what kind of damage it deals, RAW it deals untyped spell damage, not physical damage.
- It is a transmutation spell, so the javelins are kept together by magic.
- It is instantaneous (at least, I think the instantaneous duration is applied to the javelins) so the javelins are actual ice.
- It has a duration of "until expended" (again, it seems to apply to the javelins), so the javelins aren't actual ice, as they disappear when used.
All the above statements can't be true at the same time, so we have to pick what agrees more with us.

Mysterious Stranger |

If DR applies to the damage from holy ice the spell should be a lot lower level than 5th level. Flame strike is also a 5th level spell on the same spell list. It damages every target it a 10 foot radius with a save for half. Half of the damage bypasses any fire resistance or immunity. So, at 11th level it does an average damage of 39 of which 19 will affect any creature, with those that make the save taking half damage. Holy Ice cast by an 11th level caster on any creature with DR of 5 will require 11 attack rolls and on the average do 11 pts of cold damage vs something without cold resistance and 11 points to an undead or evil outsider. Considering all evil outsiders have cold resistance as do a lot of undead that means most things are taking little to no damage from the spell.
If DR applies to the damage from Holy Ice, it should be a 2nd level or at most a 3rd level spell.

eyelessgame |
zza ni wrote:All the above statements can't be true at the same time, so we have to pick what agrees more with us.
Excellent point. I also need to adjudicate...
- Does the bonus to hit from smite apply to all attacks? (Probably yes)
- Now that I'm thinking about the concept of simultaneous d20s, would the Luck first-level domain power, if active, apply to all of the d20s rolled? That is, does each of the attack rolls rolled by this spell allow rolling two d20s and using the better one? I will probably allow it, though arguably it might not be intended to...
Separate from that: I am considering inventing the following and ruling it to be so at my table, to provide a bit of cool flavor and explain the "until expended" part (and to make up a bit for the spell being piercing instead of untyped).
"If the caster uses the spell to create an ice wall, the caster may, at any time during the duration of the ice wall before it is broken through, use a standard action to transform the ice wall into 1 javelin per caster level, hurling them from the location of the ice wall, at one or more opponents no more than ten feet away from each other. Both the ice wall and the target(s) must be within sight of the caster."

bbangerter |

pretty sure it works like adding sneak attack to multi attack spell. the FAQ here say that:
Smite evil only applies once, this FAQ addresses that directly. Note the FAQ only limits the damage bonus to one of the attacks. So the bonus to hit applies to all.
Diego is correct on the damage type - that is, it is untyped magical damage, so DR does not apply. Compare and contrast with spells like Ice storm - some bludgeoning and some cold damage. Stone call - bludgeoning damage. etc.

zza ni |

if you want to house-rule transforming the wall into javelins i'd edit it to limit and only make one javelin per full minute of unused duration left. (while still limiting it to one per caster level in case the duration is increased per extend spell etc).
so if transforming it after 15 rounds you'd get (caster level-2) javelins and such.

Mark Hoover 330 |
So I have a paladin just about to turn L11 in one of my campaigns. I also have a Fire Elementalist wizard that likes to throw multiple Scorching Rays around all the time. I get what you're saying, that if the source of the attack is a spell the damage bonus from Smite Evil handed out by Aura of Justice applies to only one javelin (or, in my case one Scorching Ray), the Smite Evil ability specifically calls out "If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls."
Would that mean that, since the spellcaster is making a single attack roll per javelin or ray each one of those attack rolls is getting the paladin's Cha bonus to attack?

eyelessgame |
I don't think we'll find a clear RAW, but I am planning to adjudicate it "attack roll bonuses and DR (as appropriate) apply to all simultaneous attacks, but damage bonuses apply to only one, chosen by caster before rolling." Splits the difference with no real justification, but... the bonus to hit/DR bypass/AC bonus are all sort of "conditions", while the extra damage is kind of "deliberate", and thus the extra damage only happens when you are deciding to apply it, which you can only do once at a time.
Sorta. Anyway, that's what I'm doing for now, after reading the commentary/feedback, for what it's worth.

Mark Hoover 330 |
I'm going to do the same thing and I just sent an email to the group preemptively. I just realized: this group of PCs travels with a Cleric cohort, and while the paladin is about to turn L11 the cohort is about to hit L9. At that level, the cohort will get access to Holy Ice and there's no way I'm having the COHORT launch a potential 9d6 +99, plus 9 Cold, 9 Holy damage round of attacks. Not to mention that every single one of those attacks would be +18 to hit at least! Oh, and did I mention... the next big bad the PCs are currently hunting is a powerful Undead!
Thanks much for this thread!

Azothath |
Holy Ice Weapon:T2
Holy Ice:T5
There are several things to think about;
effect of Antimagic Field and SR on a javelin, what persists and what goes.
Holy Ice Weapon leads into Holy Ice, so what carries over?

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Holy Ice:T5There are several things to think about;
effect of Antimagic Field and SR on a javelin, what persists and what goes.
Holy Ice Weapon leads into Holy Ice, so what carries over?
Spell Resistance yes
If you fail to overcome SR the spell does nothing to that target.
Holy Ice Weapon doesn't lead into Holy Ice simply because they have similar names and components. They are separated e very different spells.

Azothath |
{update}
Holy Ice Weapon:T2 AdvClsGd p185 pub 2014
Holy Ice:T5 UltMag p223 pub 2011
the high similarity in names was why I posted them, didn't have time to research them. The order of publication is reversed with Holy Ice then Holy Ice Weapon. They do share some similarities in trying to create holy ice and inflict damage from it.
The text of Holy Ice (javelins) assumes the javelins immediately launch at a target or targets in close proximity of one another. On the surface it doesn't seem overpowered but an attempt to provide a bunch of "to hit & damage" dice.
javelin range modifiers & susceptibility to things like Wind Wall and others that stop normal ranged weapon attack ?

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javelin range modifiers & susceptibility to things like Wind Wall and others that stop normal ranged weapon attack ?
It doesn't say that they are weapons, so, in theory, no. They strike as a spell.
They attack normal Ac as the spell doesn't say that they are a ranged touch attack.Again, whoever wrote the spell assumed a lot of things and didn't care about making it "spell description" compliant.
At the end of the day, your GM should have to decide.