This would really hurt an actual party.

[Senko]

I'm doing a solo playthrough of Wrath of the Righteous to see how sphere casting works and so far I have had 4 random encounters. A bat swarm, a venomous snake swarm, a second bat swarm and another bat swarm. Anyone else had times they've used random tables as a GM and got this kind of sadistic party killing result?

[Waterhammer]

Yeah. The dice like to do that.

[Diego Rossi]

No experience with Sphere casting, so I wrote a generic reply.

It all depends on your party composition. An alchemist will kill the swarms easily. Kinetik blasts deal normal damage. Several spells have an area of effect and deal 150% damage, including 2nd level spells.

Without magic-wielding classes, it becomes more complicated.

The snake swarm is made of tiny creatures, so it can be killed by weapons. It is relatively slow, so it can be fought while moderating the risk. The poison is relatively powerful for its CR.

The bat swarm is made of diminutive creatures, so it is immune to weapons, it is fast, and the bleed effect can be a real pain. For a party of 2nd-level characters, it can be very hard.

So:
- Swarm CR generally is undervalued. Most of them should be 1-2 CR points above what the Bestiary says.
- The party level and composition matter. Playing the Wrath of the Righteous AP can be a good idea to forewarn the players about what they can encounter. They live in a land subject to a demonic invasion, so they should have heard about the common hazards in the area. Plenty of demons can summon swarms.
- It can be a good idea to pre-roll the encounters and adapt them. during a game of Kingmaker while rolling the encounters for my players (2nd level) I rolled a group of bandits and 5 trolls for the same day. It became a single human (bandit) running like mad toward the players, yelling "Trolls!" as soon as he was able to breathe. The characters put him on their pack mule and started to move away. When he was a bit more coherent he did tell them that he and his "friends", that were out "hunting" were ambushed by a pack of trolls. He was the only one able to escape.
Wisely, the characters tried to flee the area and, when they did make camp, prepared their defenses.
That night the single toll that had trailed the bandit put his foot in the bear trap they had prepared (lately, to become the symbol on the silver coin of the kingdom). The bandit jumped on the mule and flee to parts unknown, the troll failed to free himself from the trap and the party killed him thanks to acid splash.
It was fun and rewarding both for the players and the GM, while an encounter with a group of bandits and then a pack of trolls would have been way less fun and possibly a TPK.
The job of the GM is to make the game interesting. Adjusting the encounters is part of that.

[Senko]

Oh sure swarms are easily handled by the right party/group. If you don't have that however they are nasty to handle particularly in this particular AP where you have a decent chance of party members starting off without any gear like alchemist fire. Since it starts off at a parade then drops the party into the underground and seals them in. A kind GM will let them have all their equipment, one who isn't so kind however will ask why they took a backpack full of gear to watch a parade in the middle of a fortified city, not to mention if you have it on a pack animal it states it runs off.

I'm doing this to get experience with sphere casting it can actually make swarms easier to deal with as you can easily start with a standard action d6 attack that hits a 5' square and counts as a ray.

[Diego Rossi]

Senko wrote:

I'm doing this to get experience with sphere casting it can actually make swarms easier to deal with as you can easily start with a standard action d6 attack that hits a 5' square and counts as a ray.

Sound a bit overpowered.

Does the target get to save for half damage?
The attack hitting a 5' square sound as the caster will target the square with the ray, so it will be an almost automatic hit.

[Senko]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Senko wrote:

I'm doing this to get experience with sphere casting it can actually make swarms easier to deal with as you can easily start with a standard action d6 attack that hits a 5' square and counts as a ray.

Sound a bit overpowered.

Does the target get to save for half damage?
The attack hitting a 5' square sound as the caster will target the square with the ray, so it will be an almost automatic hit.

If you're using the explosive orb talent to modify the blast then yes. Its base 5 foot square ability is a reflex save fully negates it and if you spend a spell point to use that abilities option for a larger area then its reflex half. If your using the normal blast no. From what I've seen so far its pulled down the upper limits on maigc e.g. no wish/limited wish but raised the average abilities so they can do more.

For example a magic user gets an increasing d6 bludgeoning standard attack they can use all day and at 20th level does either 10d6 or if they spend a spellpoint 20d6 damage. So they can deliver a powerful single hit to an enemy as opposed to a martial class doing 3+ lower damage attacks as a full attack. If you use other talents they may modify the free ability as mentioned above where you can target an area but it can be good or bad e.g. a reflex save either fully negating or reducing your damage by half. Alternatively they may fully modify the blast in which case its usually a spellpoint to apply them e.g. turning the damage to force and adding a reflex save to avoid falling prone. The two abilities I mentioned are below if you want to read the full text.

Destructive Blast
As a standard action, you may deliver a burst of blunt magical force as a melee touch attack or a ranged touch attack within close range. A destructive blast is subject to spell resistance, and while it bypasses DR/magic, it does not automatically bypass other forms of damage reduction if it deals physical damage (bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing). A ranged destructive blast counts as a ray attack.

A basic destructive blast deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every odd caster level.

Table: Destructive Blast Damage
Level Damage
1st 1d6
3rd 2d6
5th 3d6
7th 4d6
9th 5d6
11th 6d6
13th 7d6
15th 8d6
17th 9d6
19th 10d6
21st 11d6
23rd 12d6
25th 13d6

You may spend 1 spell point when making a destructive blast to increase the damage dealt to one damage die per caster level (minimum 2d6).

Explosive Orb (blast shape)
You may transform your destructive blast into a burst effect centered anywhere within range. This destructive blast fills a single 5-foot square (Reflex negates). You may spend a spell point to increase this burst to a radius of up to 10 feet + 5 feet per 5 caster levels (Reflex half).

[Valandil Ancalime]

Senko wrote:

Anyone else had times they've used random tables as a GM and got this kind of sadistic party killing result?

It's been a few years, so my memory is hazy. In Kingmaker the 1st random monster roll of the new module (the 3rd module?, so we were level 6/7?...I think?) was a 00 (1d4 adult? black dragons) followed by a 4. So the worst random monster, max numbers, with the pcs being the lowest level possible.

[Senko]

Ouch, swarms may not be easily managed in large numbers but 4 adult black dragons is probably going to eat the party.

[Azothath]

helpful monster lists
the terrain lists do not give CR which minimizes their usefulness.

[Mark Hoover 330]

The idea of wandering monster tables for me have always been more of a guideline than a rule. In AD&D 1 or 2 I used to routinely make a roll in front of my players and then randomly pick the monsters I wanted. I'd also use random encounters as a chance to ham it up with NPCs.

These practices persist today. If I get a super dangerous result, like a hill giant or an adult red dragon for APL 1 or 2 groups, these encounters become about something else.

With the hill giant I ran him like Polyphemus from The Oddessy; he has a bunch of dire sheep he needs to protect from nearby hobgoblins. With that as the giant's motivation, he's not looking to just slay and eat every PC that wanders too close, so long as they respect the sheep, and the PCs might even bargain with the giant if they take the time to roleplay.

With the dragon it swooped down close to the party's location and spooked the horses. This turned the encounter into a scene to stop one of the horses from running over a cliff. Had the PCs directly attacked the dragon it would've likely been the end of the campaign, but giving them something more manageable to accomplish still handed the PCs XP without having to reroll characters.

Still in all, it is GOOD IMO to remind players once in a while that there are dangers out there they can't just go toe-to-toe with. There's a reason why Obscuring Mist or Expeditious Retreat exist, and they aren't necessarily meant for combat.

The few times PCs have died in my campaigns recently it's because the party got super confident thinking they can just saunter up, nova, and take down whatever I throw at them b/c they're awesome. Sometimes even though you knew a black dragon was coming you didn't prep hard enough, or your squishy rogue makes an 80' Charge attack and leaves herself in melee, alone, with the creature.

I tell my players all the time: running away is always an option. So is bribery or distraction, negotiation if the creatures can understand you. Heck, I'll even allow Handle Animal checks even though the skill specifically calls out that it isn't intended for calming/controlling hostile wild animals. Bottom line, I want the freedom as a GM to introduce a "bigger fish" from time to time and I want players that know "fight" isn't the only response.

[Azothath]

ya know - I want to run a group through "Rise of the Runelords" again in Campaign mode. The chronicles will be well worth your cries of anguish and you'll have some great war stories...

[Diego Rossi]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

The idea of wandering monster tables for me have always been more of a guideline than a rule. In AD&D 1 or 2 I used to routinely make a roll in front of my players and then randomly pick the monsters I wanted. I'd also use random encounters as a chance to ham it up with NPCs.

These practices persist today. If I get a super dangerous result, like a hill giant or an adult red dragon for APL 1 or 2 groups, these encounters become about something else.

Or the dragon could be flying high in the sky, searching for its next meal. The PCs can hide, if mounted they can dismount and spook the horses before hiding, giving it some tasting horseflesh.

Or, instead, do something stupid like attacking the dragon.

What happens is a consequence of their action.

In one instance my PCs encountered a hill giant, he asked for payment to let them be. "A handful of coins." They gave him a couple of hundred CPs. The giant was happy, the PCs were happy and all ended well.

Wandering encounters shouldn't be "a hydra was hiding behind that 1' high bush 40' from you."

[Senko]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

The idea of wandering monster tables for me have always been more of a guideline than a rule. In AD&D 1 or 2 I used to routinely make a roll in front of my players and then randomly pick the monsters I wanted. I'd also use random encounters as a chance to ham it up with NPCs.

These practices persist today. If I get a super dangerous result, like a hill giant or an adult red dragon for APL 1 or 2 groups, these encounters become about something else.

Or the dragon could be flying high in the sky, searching for its next meal. The PCs can hide, if mounted they can dismount and spook the horses before hiding, giving it some tasting horseflesh.

Or, instead, do something stupid like attacking the dragon.

What happens is a consequence of their action.

In one instance my PCs encountered a hill giant, he asked for payment to let them be. "A handful of coins." They gave him a couple of hundred CPs. The giant was happy, the PCs were happy and all ended well.

Wandering encounters shouldn't be "a hydra was hiding behind that 1' high bush 40' from you."

Or the video game "You have a random encounter" enemy are conveniently placed completely surrounding your group in open terrain leaving you wondering how they got this close with no one spotting them because even you a non-adventuring person would have noticed half a dozen giants walking up to you.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Wandering monsters don't even have to mean combat. One of my fave wandering monsters I add into every table is some variation of a traveling salesman.

Could be a lone kobold Adept 2 with the Mending and Prestidigitation cantrips that goes about the dungeon, fixing and cleaning old mundane gear and selling it for x3 times its worth to desperate APL1 parties, or it might be a coven bound to the Wytchmarket looking to bargain 10 years of a PC's youth for a scroll of Resurrection. I don't know, but I've always got something along those lines laying around.

But yeah, the "a new monster has appeared!" moments just feel boring to me. I mean, they serve their purpose; they prompt a mindless combat spontaneously to try and force the PCs to lose some resources before a set-piece encounter, but they can feel super out of place.