| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is just an interest check right now, it'll take a bit to set up if this goes forward. If you like the idea, let me know even if you don't plan on joining in (but let me know if you would join or not so I can plan that part).
The basic idea is that players, whether alone or in parties, are all dropped on a map and must escape to the center where only 6 people can leave alive. Rather than an outright circle of death, the map has monsters and in particular, a monstrous horde is invading from the map borders which acts as the push towards the center, of course, you also have to reach the escape chamber in the center to win as well.
I figure on including some survival elements such as needing food and water with the in-game time frame of about a month. This will be more combat-as-war, so don't expect every encounter to be matched to your level and party.
Other aspects to be included are that spell materials and foci must individually be found, much like how weapons and armor must be found.
There are some other things I'd like feedback on to decide whether to incorporate, such as an alternate health system that I think enhances the survivalist feel of the game, vitalizing spellpoints rather than slots, and 3d6 over d20.
Everyone starts at level 1, but xp are kinda like items that you steal from those you kill. So if you kill a level 3 PC, you gain their XP. This character generation should include the general choices made at each level so it's quick and easy to jump up in levels, but not required.
If I run this, I'll do it somewhat slowly, aiming at 3 posts per week minimum. I might go faster when I can (assuming all players keep up), but as I work 7 days a week, I'm only promising 3/week and will slow down to that at need.
I'm willing to accept multiple groups or even individuals. I've already got some plans in place for dealing with timing.
The map can either be a big island, or perhaps more fitting, a massive dungeon.
So what do you guys think? What would you change or avoid changing? If this succeeds, I might even run this seasonally.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm interested! I have some questions/thoughts however.
Questions:
-How much (if any) focus will be given to RP?
-Do we know each other? How many people were you thinking of recruiting? Will there be several teams? If there are, how do you plan on keeping things fair between them?
-How did we end up here?
-Is inter/intra party conflict allowed/expected/encouraged?
Thoughts:
-I'm personally not the biggest fan of 3d6 over d20, but that's ok! Not everything has to cater to my exact tastes.
-The rules you suggest push towards some classes over others. For instance, I would expect to see more Monks and Sorcerers over Paladins and Wizards. The reason for that is self-sufficiency; Monks don't need as much in terms of weapons and armor, and sorcerers come with eschew materials baked in. Not that this is a bad thing per-se, but do consider that. Classes like kineticist are far less likely to need to scavenge than clerics. This ties back into the questions; if players are encouraged to kill each other as well, they are far less likely to pick classes that need other people to support them.
-You are probably going to want to audit the spell list pretty thoroughly. Create water is an orison with no material components. Purify food and drink coupled with restore corpse creates an effective, if grizzly way to avoid needing to scavenge. There are plenty of spells like rope trick that let you trivialize hiding/sleeping. Lay of the land exists after all.
I'm sure I can think of more. That being said, I'm quite interested! I just think it's important to set clear expectations at the start so everyone knows what they are getting into!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm interested! I have some questions/thoughts however.
Questions:
-How much (if any) focus will be given to RP?
I run everything from an in-world perspective, and players are welcome and encouraged to RP during the game (in fact, it'll probably help keep disparate groups synced time-wise).
That said, I don't currently have plans for any kind of deep narrative. The story is that a single use of a portal/teleport/etc escape route is all that is left and the survivors of course want to escape the exponentially growing monster horde, kinda like a classic zombie apocalypse but with more than just undead.
-Do we know each other?
That's up to each group.
How many people were you thinking of recruiting?
I don't know. I figured I'd see what kind of interest I got, though I honestly don't expect to get enough to need to turn people away. Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised on that front.
Will there be several teams? If there are, how do you plan on keeping things fair between them?
Multiple groups are fine as they are part of the pvp of a battle royale.
Keeping things fair? Well, that's more complicated, and that topic starts with asking "what is fair?"
My intent is a combat-as-war type of play. Everyone gets equal opportunity, but what you do with that can indeed result in unbalanced teams, but that's part of the point, for players to try and unbalance things in their favor as much as possible, within the "rules."
I aim at being a neutral arbitor, applying the rules equally to all players, but importantly, I interpret the rules heavily from the perspective of the milieu physics rather than from a game-like perspective.
Players should outright expect to need to use tactics and strategies and the environment to stack the deck in their favor.
That said, I will be making some changes to keep things from getting ridiculous and hopefully prevent things from getting out of hand. How I do that is going to be more old school though. Advantages come from accessibility and likelihood of finding materials and or time. Fighters for example, with their proficiency for all martial weapons means they are more likely to find a weapon they can use, as opposed to a class with a limited proficiency list that will be less likely to find a weapon they are proficient with. With the constant advancement of monsters, casters will need to carefully manage spells as they will not be able to rely on getting rest whenever they want. And spells will rely on material components being individually found, meaning casters have to work with what they find, no spell component pouches to hand wave it away.
These are the ways I balance things, time, opportunity, and resources required.
This is the biggest part of the preparations I'll need to make.
-How did we end up here?
Not sure yet. I've got a few ideas, but I'll determine that if things move forward.
-Is inter/intra party conflict allowed/expected/encouraged?
There will be 6 people able to escape, whether that be two teams of 3, or 6 solo players who willing step im the final room without killing each other. Regardless, if there be more than 6 players, than yea, pvp will be practically required.
Thoughts:
-I'm personally not the biggest fan of 3d6 over d20, but that's ok! Not everything has to cater to my exact tastes.
I generally prefer 3d6, but this is one case where my inner designer is conflicted over it. I think if you ever were to do a flat curve, this game would be it. Then again, being quite cutthroat, I figure some might prefer the greater consistency of a bell curve.
-The rules you suggest push towards some classes over others. For instance, I would expect to see more Monks and Sorcerers over Paladins and Wizards. The reason for that is self-sufficiency; Monks don't need as much in terms of weapons and armor, and sorcerers come with eschew materials baked in. Not that this is a bad thing per-se, but do consider that. Classes like kineticist are far less likely to need to scavenge than clerics. This ties back into the questions; if players are encouraged to kill each other as well, they are far less likely to pick classes that need other people to support them.
I'll be honest, I've had my nose primarily stuck in the d20 ogl (for my own system). I forgot all about sorcerers getting eschew materials. I'll probably swap that particular feat out for another. For the most part though, I'll be carefully selecting what will be allowed. I'll consider proposed non-core stuff, plus some that I'm already familiar with during me establishing how everything will work, but after that, pick from the approved list.
Monk might seem like a great idea at first, but a monk is melee, and with the christmas tree of magic items towards late-game, I don't expect monks to be ahead. Might be nice early, but not for long. Start facing ordered platoons of hobgoblins with armor and spears formed in ranks and monk will start feeling like everybody else, good for some encounters, but not others.
-You are probably going to want to audit the spell list pretty thoroughly. Create water is an orison with no material components. Purify food and drink coupled with restore corpse creates an effective, if grizzly way to avoid needing to scavenge. There are plenty of spells like rope trick that let you trivialize hiding/sleeping. Lay of the land exists after all.
Yep, going through that stuff is why I expect it to take time should this move forward. I'll have lots of prep work required.
I'm sure I can think of more. That being said, I'm quite interested! I just think it's important to set clear expectations at the start so everyone knows what they are getting into!
Hell, hell is what you'll be getting into! }:D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd suggest considering a team loyalty mandate. Max team size being 6, no "need" to turn on teammates, you can all escape.
You cannot turn on your team and if you do, your XP gets distributed across the team.
The game will be hard enough without a distrust of teammates.
If that works, I'm interested and would love to start a team... as a working name, The Regulators.
If anyone would like to join, please express interest with a character concept and role, niche(s), specialt(y/ies), etc... melee, range, battlefield control, arcane, divine, stealth, recon, healing, AoE, etc...
Would love to get 6 members (5 + myself), I can create my character last to fill any voids in team balance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, team names! I think I can work that into the narrative. The nightmare realms have valuable resources, and is easy to get into, but hard to get out of. A natural conflux of laylines allows escape once a year but only for a few, but many materials can only be obtained from the nightmare realms, many groups are sent by many different factions in the hope of retrieving such valuable resources. The most dangerous job in the world, elite teams take on the fighter jock mentality as they all know, few will ever return.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, team names! I think I can work that into the narrative.
I just meant for OOC ease of reference.
Team Loyalty is the more important aspect.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yep, but inspiration is inspiring anyway. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok so if this is going to be competitive, I have a few more recommendations. Banning things like sacred geometry and blood money are givens. If you don't, I can point to several builds that have the potential to invalidate less hyper optimized builds. Blood money in particular is famous for being a problem, what with having no material components, other than your blood. Once a wizard with a cleric friend gets to casting fabricate+bloodmoney, your plans to limit things by material scarcity becomes non-existant.
Do teleportation effects work? If not, do they fail, or do they kill you? What about summoning and conjuration effects? I like competition, but once you open those floodgates, optimization becomes key. I'm not against that on principal, but it bears saying.
I'd be interested in joining you Markus. I've got a few ideas that might be good here, Enchantment Sorcerer, Monk, Bard, Kineticist... really any of those could be fun. I agree that trust is a big thing, so perhaps our characters could have known each other from before the inciting incident. I know you said you'd fill, but what do you like playing best?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First, non-core options are not allowed unless explicitly allowed. I'm fine with many options, but that's entirely too much to just go through, so I'd have people bring any non-core options desired long before actual play so I can address them appropriately.
Second, a very important thing to note is when I mentioned running things from an in-game physics perspective, which prohibits some of the worst aspects of blood money. For example, my reading of the spell suggests that blood money covers material components that power a spell, such as the guano and sulfer for fireball, but fabricate isn't powered by the material, rather it takes raw material amd reshapes it, amd it even explicitly mentions how the end product is the same material as that provided, therefore, blood money couldn't be used for fabricate anyway. That said, blood money can only last a round, after which the blood no longer works as a material component, thus spells with long casting times wouldn't work with blood money.
Third, I plan to adjust the health system, so couple that with the rest-is-uncertain nature of the game, and that should make blood money a very risky spell to use. Even using restoration to recover the strength damage costs spell slots that become rather precious when the 15-minute workday is just a pipe-dream.
Restoration of ability damage and recovering slots will not be trivial. Those are rather important to the survivalist nature of the game anyway, but also makes blood money an expensive and risky choice.
At least, that's what I'd expect. With this in mind, what do you think?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When you say non-core, does that also include classes? Things like magus, oracle, etc? Does that include non-core architypes? Prestige classes? If not, I forgot that RAW, psychic magic also doesn't have expensive components. Also I can almost guarantee that no one will chose unchained rogue, let alone chained rogue if we're in a competitive environment. I say this with great sadness, as my first character was a rogue, and will forever hold a special place in my heart.
I will concede the bloodmoney fabricate hack. However, it still works with other obnoxious spells like animate dead, desicrate, true-seeing, stoneskin. Considering that strength isn't all that important a stat for many spellcasters, going down to a 6 isn't as crippling as it could be. Not to mention possession, or other things that I haven't even considered, and I would strongly recommend heading it off at the pass, and just removing it, but it is your game, and if you leave it open, I'll take a crack at it myself :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know you said you'd fill, but what do you like playing best?
Rogues... :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now, rogues will have their place, for monsters love traps, especially kobolds. (Why else would dungeons be filled with them)
Further, environment is a factor, and that means those extra skill points can come in handy in maneuvering and traversing the field.
Oh, and stay away from Grimtooth's Traps if you don't like spoilers, as I like that book for inspiration. }:)
I hope we get more than just two people though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
25 Point Buy & Multi-Classing?
With the level of deadliness, lack of resources and PvP, that should be fair.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not certain yet. A) I want to have a strong sense of danger, and B) I want a simple selection of resources to find without losing much variety and items to increase ability scores fits the bill.
That said, 15 point buy is already elite level scores. I am perhaps unusual in that I've never liked letting ability scores get too crazy, but I recognize I'm in the minority on that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@GM DarkLightHitomi - why not just play it vanilla and select which books you're willing to use, for simplicity instead of hand-picking this or that mechanic.
I suppose options presented within said books could be a yay/nay... Automatic Bonus Progression? Background Skills? Although not core, Elephant in the Room?
Will we need to craft arrows & bolts or can we craft weapons? Or even craft magic items?
Does surrender count as defeat (gain their XP)? I'd rather not kill/slaughter anyone/anything unless we have to.
Also, when we defeat an enemy, their XP is split evenly among the team (my suggestion).
Future Regulators could work on:
* a Wizard (Evocation?)
* a Cleric (Travel, Protection?)
* a Reach Fighter (any Full BAB class, 2H, trip, AoO, flank?)
* an Unchained Rogue (unless that's not core, Trap Spotter?)
* a Bard (never played a Bard, but they're buff & knowledge handy)
* an Archer (Fighter, Ranger, Zen Archer, Divine Hunter Paladin, etc...)
Keep it limited to Core and we can adjust when we know more.
My preference would be alignments of LG (not lawful stupid), NG, CG (not anarchist), LN or CN (not anarchist) for Regulators.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@GM DarkLightHitomi - why not just play it vanilla and select which books you're willing to use, for simplicity instead of hand-picking this or that mechanic.
I suppose options presented within said books could be a yay/nay... Automatic Bonus Progression? Background Skills? Although not core, Elephant in the Room?
Reasons for changes,
A) The themes I want to focus on can be easily undercut and I want to avoid that.B) Some changes aren't necessary but can enhance the themes, i.e. my health system.
C) To make things easier for me to run this. Easier loot charts for example.
Will we need to craft arrows & bolts or can we craft weapons? Or even craft magic items?
You could, but I would expect it to be disastrous for anything taking more than a day. Also planning on a 1 month in-game time frame, so not a lot of time to gather required materials and tools then construct desired items. All the while being hunted and interrupted.
Does surrender count as defeat (gain their XP)? I'd rather not kill/slaughter anyone/anything unless we have to.
XP are etherial items, so anyone can absorb them from a fresh kill, but I'd allow a mage or at least training in magic to be able to make a check to absorb them from a willing target or give them. I might need to stop that if it gets cheesed however.
Also, when we defeat an enemy, their XP is split evenly among the team (my suggestion).
As a sort of item, equally divided among those who take them from the dead at the same time. Taking an action to do this, so run and gun will leave a bunch behind, and anyone who wants some needs to take part or have players explicitly share. Keep in mind that characters can't accurately measure, only make a rough guess (from their perspective).
XP is basically a power enhancer, so you feel it as a sense of power and ability. Not exactly easy to measure accurately.
My preference would be alignments of LG (not lawful stupid), NG, CG (not anarchist), LN or CN (not anarchist) for Regulators.
Actually, I should clarify my interpretation of alignment.
Only the 10% most extreme of an alignment has that alignment, i.e. the 10% most good have the good alignment.
Good vs evil are values.
Good are values beyond the self. Those of the good alignment don't even consider the cost to themselves in achieving their values. Doesn't mean they'll be stupid about it, but they'll readily sacrifice themselves for what they value. Usually this value is society or the greater good, but can be other universal concepts such as advancing knowledge (what a good aligned scientist might value).
Evil are personal focused values, such as power, wealth, enjoyment, etc. Evil can actually be fair about this, believing everyone has the right and should seek such values, but they can also be apathetic towards others, or even be monstrous and actively seek to deprive others or cause pain/etc.
Lawful vs chaotic is ideology vs relationships.
Lawful are those who act based on an ideology, whatever that ideology might be. If faced with ideology vs relationship, they'll choose ideology. They act according to what they believe they should do regardless of emotion (generally speaking).
Chaotic is about relationships and emotions. They might do good, but it'll be because it feels right rather than belief.
This makes it obvious why alignment restrictions exist. The entire concept of a paladin is built on ideology of selflessness.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Upon further consideration, there may be too many non-standard factors, meaning I may not have as firm a grasp on the rules and tactics as I'd like.
Apologies for my withdrawal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Upon further consideration, there may be too many non-standard factors, meaning I may not have as firm a grasp on the rules and tactics as I'd like.
Apologies for my withdrawal.
As an interest check, nothing is written in stone yet. If you have reservations, tell me about them.
I talk a lot, but that doesn't mean I'm inflexible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Question for anyone interested in this kind of play,
One problem I need to solve is a spell, Create Water. That obviously negates any survival need to locate and carry water. There are a number if different ways I can deal with this.
A) I can say that created water only lasts for a short time and then disappears, making it useful to clean things or douse fire or other similar tasks, but if drank would actually result in greater dehydration later as the created water disappears from the body.
B) I can require a material component that must be found, leading to those needing water being able to find water or find a material component, either way it is still limited by found resources.
C) Use the vitalizing spellpoints system from my own game system in which casting spells consumes HP. Including healing spells costing more HP than what is healed. This makes magic a bit more flexible but also dangerous and requires careful management of HP. I don't recommend unless also using my health system. In the end, relying on magic alone would be a slow death, hence why people still need to grow food and eat and rest, because magical solutions to these issues are temporary and costly, though it can make healing a thing as it can turn lethal wounds into nonlethal dmg for the healer.
D) I could simply remove the spell.
This variety of possibilities exists for the various other spells and abilities as well.
Which of these styles do you like? What do you think the pros and cons are?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Would removing Conjuration work?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It would remove some problematic spells, but it would also remove a bunch of perfectly good and useful spells too. It would be simple to implement but I'd also consider it overkill.
If going the spell removal route, I'd see what you think of think of removing planer magic and spells that create food, water, or permanent items. That way spells like acid arrow and acid pit are still available.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd think let those spells happen... as with other abilities, makes certain classes more desirable.
Also puts a target on their back. Just another version of old school... Protect the Magic-User.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Create Water
School conjuration (creation) [water]; Level cleric/oracle 0, druid 0, inquisitor 0, paladin [1], shaman 0
Paladin is the only Full BAB that can cast it, and only starting at Level 4 (spell slot, not at will).
Create Food and Water
School conjuration (creation); Level cleric/oracle 3, shaman 3; Subdomain family 3
Considering there are other scarcity aspects to the game, it's not really a game changer... It just creates another dynamic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My concern is more the mind/head games or psychology around being forced to kill others to survive. It gets dark pretty fast.
Is it a simulation of some sort and the folks being killed aren't real? Is it like infinite mirrors...
Where the player controls the character and the character controls an avatar?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A) Allowing create water and food is ok I guess, but it then it makes it a task that is looked at as a must fill role in the party. Something I generally avoid because I rather dislike having needs that the party must fill.
B) Battle royale tends to be pvp focused. Though you could certainly get by with little to no killing if you play your cards right, but the very act of escape means anyone left behind must survive for a year in the horde of monsters. Any basically everyone knows that going in. You can think of the different teams as coming from different rival nations and such, so not exactly your fellow countrymen. Though some might be criminal backed groups or whatever.