When to make skill checks

[TR_Merc]

So I have this DM who is constantly asking us what Knowledge check we want to make to identify something, and if we use the wrong knowledge skill said, we fail to identify what we are fighting.

So the question came up if the DM is supposed to tell you what knowledge skill to make or any skill checks to make, and I can't seem to find a rule anywhere about that.

[Java Man]

Okay, to be blunt your GM is being a tool. That said, it requires no action to make a knowledge check, so just ask to roll every one you have.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Knowledge (Int; Trained Only) wrote:

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 99

You are educated in a field of study and can answer both simple and complex questions. Like the Craft, Perform, and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of different specialties. Below are listed typical fields of study.

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
History (wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Nobility (lineages, heraldry, personalities, royalty)
Planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, planar magic)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)

Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR, or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information...

Unless your GM is deliberately throwing deceptive creatures at you, it shouldn't be too hard to guess the correct skill...

[Java Man]

Thought excercise: irl you want to identify that thing approaching down the sidewalk, do you consciously decide to use your knowledge local of nature? If you pick wrong will you fail to recognize it it is a grizzly bear or a bicyclist?

[MrCharisma]

Agreed.

If the GM thinks telling you the check to use is too much meta information, then perhaps they should just have a chart of everyone's knowledge checks and they should roll it themselves at the beginjing of each encounter. This will not only let them keep their secrets and give the players the information they're supposed to have, but it will also create more work for the GM and slow things down, which is clearly what they're aiming for.

[TR_Merc]

Java Man wrote:

Okay, to be blunt your GM is being a tool. That said, it requires no action to make a knowledge check, so just ask to roll every one you have.

I would, but if you roll the wrong skill, he is not allowing you to roll a different skill. I came up with the idea of just rolling every knowledge already.

[TR_Merc]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Unless your GM is deliberately throwing deceptive creatures at you, it shouldn't be too hard to guess the correct skill...

...

Maybe not deliberately, but he grabs obscure stuff to throw at us and sometimes, it can be confusing. Like spiders with special abilities. Is that Knowledge Arcana (Magical Creatures), or Knowledge Planes (Outsider), or Knowledge Dungeoneering (Aberration).

He also confuses things sometimes. Some of the few times he actually tells us to make a knowledge check, he asks for knowledge Geography to find something in a city which would be a knowledge local.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Your GM is handling this completely wrong. A skill check for a knowledge skill takes not time and cannot be retried. This is because you either know something or you don’t. That is what the skill check represents. You don’t consciously choose which skill to use.

Knowledge geography would be used to find the location of a city, and even some details about the city. For example knowledge geography would let you know that Damascus is a city famed for making the best weapons. Knowledge local would be used when you were in Damascus to find the best swordsmith in the city.

[MrCharisma]

TR_Merc wrote:

Java Man wrote:

Okay, to be blunt your GM is being a tool. That said, it requires no action to make a knowledge check, so just ask to roll every one you have.

I would, but if you roll the wrong skill, he is not allowing you to roll a different skill. I came up with the idea of just rolling every knowledge already.

If this is the way he's doing it and he doesn't wajt to tell you which knowledge then he should be rolling secret checks for you.

If he doesn't want to add that work, you could roll a d20 and shout out what the modifier would be depending on which skill is used, eg. "I rolled a 13 on the die, which would be a 19 for Arcana, a 16 for Dungeoneering and a 22 for History."

Because yeah the way he's doing it now makes no sense.

[Diego Rossi]

Java Man wrote:

Thought excercise: irl you want to identify that thing approaching down the sidewalk, do you consciously decide to use your knowledge local of nature? If you pick wrong will you fail to recognize it it is a grizzly bear or a bicyclist?

It is a bear on a monocycle. Or maybe I rolled a negative result. :D

[Diego Rossi]

MrCharisma wrote:

Agreed.

If the GM thinks telling you the check to use is too much meta information, then perhaps they should just have a chart of everyone's knowledge checks and they should roll it themselves at the beginjing of each encounter. This will not only let them keep their secrets and give the players the information they're supposed to have, but it will also create more work for the GM and slow things down, which is clearly what they're aiming for.

I have a chart with the character's Perception bonuses, Knowledge bonuses, and saves. If I feel that specifying what they are rolling (be it a perception check, a knowledge check, or a save) will be counterproductive for the game I will check the result secretly and only tell what happens or what they identify.

But I do that relatively rarely. There are too many ways to reroll dice or add modifiers after the roll, so it is better to use secret rolls sparingly.

[Mark Hoover 330]

TR_Merc wrote:

So I have this DM who is constantly asking us what Knowledge check we want to make to identify something, and if we use the wrong knowledge skill said, we fail to identify what we are fighting.

So the question came up if the DM is supposed to tell you what knowledge skill to make or any skill checks to make, and I can't seem to find a rule anywhere about that.

So I'm trying to understand why your GM does it this way. For example, a creature might be Vermin, Outsider or Magical Beast; what advantage would there be for the players if the GM said "roll Knowledge: Planes"?

First, you'd have to have memorized the different creature types. Second, in the moment you have to recall all of the traits of that particular creature type. Third, you have to be able to capitalize on that info, like knowing a monster's good saves and having spells ready to target their poor one(s).

Also, there are some Knowledges that reference multiple creature types. If the GM calls for Knowledge: Arcana, your foe might be a Dragon, Construct or Magical Beast. How is it any different if a red dragon flies into view and your GM says "roll Knowledge: Arcana" or if you just know as a player what a red dragon is and you metagame around that player knowledge anyway?

Lastly, would the GM allow you to research a monster before or after the fact? If your mission is to venture into an eldritch swamp and slay the black beast of destruction, can you take a day of Downtime to learn the creature is a black dragon? Could you do the same research after the fact when you return from adventures?

[Diego Rossi]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So I'm trying to understand why your GM does it this way.

Generally, the type of the creature is relevant for an Inquisitor, a few spells, and a high-level magus that has taken the ability to add bane to his weapon.

During my last session, my players encountered the animated skeleton of a bone devil. For a 5th-level party the logical reaction to encountering a bone devil (CR 11) would have been to flee, while the bone devil skeleton was well within their capability. Until the inquisitor identified it I played a bit with that uncertainly to increase the tension.
I had the players roll the dice and I added the correct Knowledge modifier, giving the result when it was the character's turn.

[Belafon]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

TR_Merc wrote:

So I have this DM who is constantly asking us what Knowledge check we want to make to identify something, and if we use the wrong knowledge skill said, we fail to identify what we are fighting.

So the question came up if the DM is supposed to tell you what knowledge skill to make or any skill checks to make, and I can't seem to find a rule anywhere about that.

So I'm trying to understand why your GM does it this way. For example, a creature might be Vermin, Outsider or Magical Beast; what advantage would there be for the players if the GM said "roll Knowledge: Planes"?

I'd guess it's the GM's reaction to bad experiences with players metagaming in the past. Not necessarily this group, could be players in the past. For example:

GM: Roll Knowledge: Planes
Players: Ooh, no one took ranks in that skill.
GM: Player 1, you're up.
Player 1: I cast dismissal.

[AwesomenessDog]

Laughs in Outsider (native).

For most enemies that have spells or effects that work exclusively or better on them (e.g. outsiders and dismissal, plants and horrific wilting, etc.) it's probably more obvious than a GM calling for a specific knowledge skill, especially for someone who is intent on metagaming.

If you can't trust your players, you probably shouldn't be playing with them.

[Belafon]

To some extent it's not deliberate cheating, it's just not being that great at abstracting player knowledge from character knowledge.

I GMed a LOT of PFS in 1E. Many a time when the scenario calls for a Perception check, simply asking for the check resulted in players acting differently than they would have otherwise. Every GM handled it differently. Some passed out cards before the game started and had every player write down their perception modifier so the GM could roll secretly. Some "pre-rolled" those checks so the players wouldn't even see the GM reach for the dice. Some would arbitrarily ask for Perception checks at random times when nothing was going to happen just to make the players paranoid. Most of us just sighed and rolled with it unless a player was being particularly egregious about it.

Spoiler:

I had two different players who would try to cast short-duration buffs any time I pulled out a map and ask them to place their minis in an area. One clearly meant to play well but had some kind of mental disconnect (or maybe you would call it an overconnection) and couldn't quite grasp that his character didn't know he was "entering the combat area." The other clearly grasped the difference, but was trying to buff anyway because he wanted to be stronger.

[Mark Hoover 330]

GM (during Session 0 or the opening moments in Session 1): No metagaming. If I call for a knowledge check on monster lore, or heck if you just know what the monster is, only YOU know that unless your character makes the skill check. If I catch you metagaming, your PC (insert appropriate penalty here).

Boom, no one is using Bane when they shouldn't know to use Bane. I personally would prefer to run things this way b/c I don't enjoy having to keep track of all of the monsters/foes, the environment, combat and non-combat encounters while also managing the PCs' Perception and knowledge checks as well. Heck, I draft a player to keep track of initiative counts for me.

[Mark Hoover 330]

@Belafon: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I like using monsters/foes that have access to buffs via treasure or their own powers. If my players metagame and pre-buff when they shouldn't be aware they're entering an encounter site, magically all their enemy's buffs are up and running too. This sometimes means they find empty potion bottles or used scrolls in the treasure hoards too.

[Ryze Kuja]

It is the DM's responsibility to tell you what Knowledge to roll when making 'Monster Lore' checks because each monster gets identified by a different "Field of Study": constructs, dragons, and magical beasts are identified by Knowledge (Arcana), aberrations and oozes are identified by Knowledge (Dungeoneering), humanoids are identified by Knowledge (Local), animals, fey, monstrous humanoids, plants, and vermin are identified by Knowledge (Nature), outsiders are identified by Knowledge (Planes), and undead are identified by Knowledge (Religion).

The player cannot accurately "guess" which one of these to roll simply based off the DM's description of the creature. Some outsiders look exactly like humanoids, and some magical beasts can look like fey, aberrations can be confused for magical beasts or outsiders, etc., and it's the DM's responsibility to tell you which Knowledge check to make to correctly identify the creature. Either your DM is inexperienced and needs to get corrected, or your DM is doing this on purpose and being an absolute douche and he needs to stop, Or, you've metagamed your DM to the point of acting like this; because if your DM asks you for a Knowledge (Planes) check to identify a monster and then you fail this roll, then the very next round you cast Banishment or Dismissal because you've figured out its an extraplanar creature without actually successfully identifying it, that's serious metagaming.

Regardless of the reason, your DM needs to start telling you which Knowledge checks to make.