Dungeoning [A different approach]

[HumbleGamer]

While lurking the treat wounds thread, I started considering the approached in terms of combat and out of combat we ( me and my groups ) had during these years.

One of the things that got my attention the most, is that it's not rare for characters to have a focus pool ( even those classes who don't have access to focus spells by default usually consider getting one ).

It's not rare that the one having medicine also has a focus pool, resulting in short breaks to be not very short.

Apart from lvl 1-3, where a group can't have continual recovery and ward healing, a group is able to patch themselves up in 10 minutes ( a standard group, which sees the frontline being hit and the backline not getting hit. Or at least, not getting hit that much ).

But if you feel more at ease, let's say 1-6, until they hit 4 person per 10 minutes.

Anyway, on a dungeon, an enemy castle, an urban underground passage, within a village of monsters, and so on, it's quite improbable for the party not being spot.

Even 10 minutes may allow a patrol to come by and inadvertently spot them ( all of this leaving apart any battle noise, blood and corpses, random patroling, intelligence work, scouting, etc... ), but let's go for it.

10 minutes for the one who heals would also mean another 10 minutes to get them refocus. But same can be said about other non "sorcerer" character who has to refocus, being unable to perform other activities ( identify items, swap spells, cast 1min+ spells, scouting, etc... ), ending up to 20 minutes.

To make a long story short, I was thinking about, depends the map size ( and combat difficulty ) to:

- Allow players to rest for 10 minutes.
- Allow players to get a limited number of rests per map ( something like darkest dungeon, if you are familair with it ).
- Give them all the refocusing activity included in any other activity.
- Allow the healer to take continual recovery and healing ward x4 even by lvl 1 ( they'd just have to get the feats by as soon as they can ).
- Knowing that dices may be a real b%!#!, I am considering giving them always a success on healing, allowing them to just roll for the critical success odds.
- Rest time may then be adjusted for what concerns in game time ( it can be 5 mins rather than 10, as it wouldn't change a thing exept for flavor purposes ).

For example, giving 4/5 rests on a map with:

-3 party +0 encounters.
-2 party +1 encounter
-1 party +2/3 encounter

The party would then consider making a good use of consumables ( I don't want to bring it back to the CLW s~@$ ), and I'd make sure they find consumables during their dungeoning, a well as bonus rewards, making them consider using it to deal with.

I am aware that, at some point, this might end up being exactly as resting until the HP are full, but I expect them to push most of the time when their HP are not full.

This will also bring up stuff any adventurer is supposed to face sometimes, like:

- Withdrawing from an encoutner.
- Have to leave a character behind.
- Have a party member die ( a tpk may also happen, but there's plenty of room to prevent this from happening ).

We just faced an encounter that almost got us TPK on EC book 1, but that's it for our whole 2e experience.

ps: I am aware the use of consumables may end up on defensive stuff, mostly ( healing potions and salves, healing scrolls, defensive scrolls, devensive elixirs ), but if well put I expect them to also properly use armor/weapon talismans ( for example, the finding a fulu that allows the weapon to be a ghost touch against specific enemy would be appreciated against undeads ).

Any suggestions?

[Ascalaphus]

Well, I agree with your diagnosis:
- it takes 10m or sometimes much longer to recover from an encounter
- it takes especially long at low level when faster healing options aren't available yet
- it strains immersion that the rest of the dungeon will pause that long

But I'm not sure I'd go for the same solutions. I'd look at:

- Just accept that low level parties can't do vast dungeons yet. Maybe the first bigger dungeon should be something that happens around level 3.
- Design dungeons in such a way that the adventure doesn't immediately collapse if the party decides to withdraw, lick their wounds, and come back later.
- You could make the encounters all easier, and then you can more reasonably require them to be done with less pausing.
- You can supply more consumables for jobs that require encounters are higher pace.

We used this in the earlier levels of Adgents of Edgewatch. We're basically police, and raiding a gang hideout, you can't really pause for half an hour to lick your wounds, then the rest of the gang would escape or destroy evidence or kill hostages or such. So when we had to do such a raid, we'd get a lot LOT more alchemical elixirs provided by the police alchemist. Of course these are the kind that only last for a day. That sidesteps the whole "saving consumables for later and then forgetting about them" or trying to sell them issue.

And it also makes kind of sense: a "normal job" is encounters with enough breathing room in between. For harder jobs than that, you have extra expenses and someone's gotta pay those.

I kinda prefer it this way because it doesn't give away the value of healing feats entirely, and you still feel a pinch of resource management, but it's more immersive.

[HumbleGamer]

Some good suggestions there, thanks!

I admit I didn't consider it outside APs, in terms of dungeon constructions, as well as its encounters, in a way to allow players to manage their stuff even with the limits imposed by the low levels ( missing feats, mostly).

I though about consumables that last until daily preparations, but what bothered me more was the poor action management this 2e has when it comes down to items.

Ending up for alchemical items to being something mostly used outside the combat, talking about those given for free by npcs because of time issues, like clw were on the 1e.

That's some really awful development I'd really like not to see again.

As for job difficulty, it's mostly the party fault for not investing in them.

One the one hand, I might end up doing a dungeon they won't be able to finish because they didn't invest in consumables, opting out for just permanent stuff.

On the other hand, deciding not to invest in consumables it's definitely their choice. And as a DM the best I could do is to throw hints about the fact rests may end up being less, in some circumstances, as well as time issues ( you have to save the princess within 3 hours, before her departure).

But seems a long work that leads down to players education ( it's not rare, in either board games and rpg, for players to fail adapting to consumables, and it may take a lot of time to be accustomed to it) rather than tweaking with rules, I fear.

If I'll ever try a homebrew dungeon again I'll definitely try to keep into account about encounters difficulty and plot/time to allow them rest ( though I admit am too at ease doing nothing but AP with a VTT :D).

[Ascalaphus]

I don't feel like the consumables in 2E are especially well done. They don't spark joy in me (and they should, since it's a game we play for fun).

They're not high impact enough that you feel like you're reaching for the big guns. But compared to permanent items they're very expensive.

Healing potions aren't particularly cheap; 3gp is a lot of money at level 1. 1d8 healing isn't a lot. Especially since you inevitably seem to roll a 1 when you were hoping for some real help. Healing 1 HP doesn't feel like it should cost 7% of the expected loot you earn during a whole level.

I've been thinking, maybe they just need to heal a whole lot more: maybe they should heal your "hit die" per item level. So a level 1 healing potion heals 6HP to a wizard and 10HP to a fighter. Most classes would end up needing close to the same amount of potions to heal from empty to full. And they feel like money well spent.

[HumbleGamer]

I agree consumables may have been better.

Some of the issues I found:

Quote:

- 2 actions required in a 3 action system is quite limiting ( and not efficient ).

- 1 or 2 manipulate actions ( draw + XXXXXX ), resulting in AoO.

- They are costy. Mostly, a consumable ends up being 1/10 of a permanent item, in terms of cost.

- They become useless in a few levels. For example, a lvl 5 potion will be come not useful in combat by lvl 8 ( leaving apart the tradeoff in terms of actions ).

- There are also items with flat DC, that may also have very cool effects, you'll get rid off as soon as you gain new levels.

- Talking about APs, it's pretty common to get low level consumables ( or items with DC ) at higher levels, which make them mostly useless ( sell to vendor )-.

Talking about Healing potions, the difference between healing elixirs and healing potions in terms of:

Quote:

- cost

- hit points
- Level

Feels somehow off.

A lvl 18 potion heals for 66 average hp and costs 5k, while a lvl 19 healing elixir ( it's a higher level item ) costs 8k and heals for 62 average hp ( its unique bonus vs diseases/poisons is an item bonus, which ends up being not so good ).

But I can also see their attempt to keep things balanced, because the alchemist ( which could create XX healing elixirs of the highest type, while a spellcaster will be stuck with low level slots, which would be not good for combat purposes, if used to heal ).

The difference of hp pool you mentioned is also part of the issue, resulting in a potion not being good enough for let's say a barbarian, but may be quite good to heal the sorcerer's wounds.

I think that tweaking with healing elixirs and potion is something which can be done, but keeping in mind how this would also affect an alchemist in terms of comparison with a healer spellcaster.

Maybe some item ( a magic bandolier? :D ) allowing the character store up to 2 potions/elixirs, allowing them to draw them as part of the activation action.

[Ascalaphus]

The difference between healing elixirs and potions isn't really sacred to me. I realize they wanted to set up some kind of distinction between scientific, not overly magical alchemy, and truly magical potions on the other hand. But I just don't care enough about that. If I'm taking a potion, I'm doing it to heal damage, I don't care if it's lemon or mint flavored.

And yeah, the item bonus against poisons/diseases, eh. Sometimes you need healing and you need help against poison. But often you just need help with one of those things (the poison doesn't really cause damage but another irritating condition; or you took damage from a fireball, not a poison). So it feels like the item is spread thin.

I also think the design is confused about what timeframe these items are for. Are they for use during encounters, or for fueling you going from one encounter to the other? A during-encounter item places real demands on action economy. A higher level healing potion is more expensive per hit point than a six-pack of lower level potions. But it's also faster to use. But out of combat, it might make sense to spend a minute chugging lower level potions. The old CLW wand problem.

Maybe a better difference would be: a Rescue Healing potion (or elixir) that acts fast but is expensive, and a Recovery Healing potion (or elixir) that's cheaper, but also takes several minutes to work. And both of them would give you an amount of healing proportional to your "hit die", since your hit die is also proportional to the amount of healing you're likely to need.

[Loreguard]

Honestly, when they said they had decided to try moving away from Resonance back in the the playtest, I had kind of hoped that Potions would have gotten limited in how many could be taken in a given amount of time.

I'd contemplated having it influenced by the Con of the drinker, or the level of the item, or the spell level the item reproduced, etc.

Although not the direction I want to go in. But originally, if you drank a potion when you were still under the effects of a potion, you had to roll for a potential interaction effect/problem.

I know people talk about CLW wand issue, and they were the issue because they were more affordable than potions, economically. But if the wands didn't exist, they might have resorted to portions.

If you were to make taking a potion bolster you to the effect of other potions while you are under its effect (and/or for a given amount of time for permanent effects like healing) it then has a viable effect on higher level individuals. They don't want to take one potion an hour for the next six hours to heal up, the time concern is enough that they will be likely willing to pay the higher cost to simply take the higher level healing option so they can take it when they need it and not have to wait.

In my concept, alchemists (class, and even probably multiclass) would have the benefit of being excluded from this usage limitation for any items they have personally made. That their bodies will not reject their elixirs nor cause mix issues.

I can imagine a potential concern I'd want to make sure certain reaction/based items, such as anti-toxin/antidotes would be exempted from the general rule, at least in respect to redressing current/impending conditions. (i.e. I wouldn't want someone to be unable to have an antitoxin/antidote administered, because they had recently imbibed a potion of invisibility... although if they are unconscious, finding them to administer it might be difficult. I just wouldn't want the ability to counter the poison to be 'canceled' by their recent use of a potion.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a fighter being unable to both quaff a potion of invisibility and one that polymorphs them into an elephant. Do I have a problem with the recently invisible person from having a healing potion administered to save their life? Good question, maybe allow it to stop they dying condition and restore them to 1 HP, but potentially delay any further healing until after the invisibility wears off?

I agree that having a 1 use item cost so close to the cost of a unlimited use item, makes it really hard to justify the expenditure. I've been tempted as some have suggested, to make the potions cost listed price per batch of 4 instead of per individual one. I have to admit, I have also wanted to consider the potential to be perishable consumables. What if you could buy some cheaper healing potions, but they would become inert within a few days. Adventurers could want to have some long term ones, but if you are in a local town, and know you're going into a fight, picking up some potions for 10% the price, but each one may have around a 50% chance of going inert every day, if you know you'll have the opportunity to use an handful, it might be worth
buying several of them.

[HumbleGamer]

Loreguard wrote:

I know people talk about CLW wand issue, and they were the issue because they were more affordable than potions, economically. But if the wands didn't exist, they might have resorted to portions.

To me that's the issue in general.

If you happen to have, and this is even enhanced with this 2e, stuff meant to be used in combat that can be exploited out of combat, it's a problem.

After all, CLW ( or low level healing potions, as you mentioned) wouldn't have been an issue if they weren't allowed to be used outside the combat, to begin with.

In this 2e this can be resembled by "pre-cast" Before starting the encounter, as we already have medicine which deals with restoring missing hit points.

But ofc we may be back to the clw exploit if not enough time were given to them to full rest, regardless the situation.

Flavor wise, there's no reason for a character not to exploit something good or efficient, but I think it should be always handled "rules/balance/mechanics first", without caring about rp.