How does the shadow dancer's shadow interact with the Dismissal spell?

[outshyn]

At 3rd level the Shadow Dancer can summon a shadow that can serve as his companion. Some text from the rules for this:

Quote:

If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

So, if the shadow falls victim to the Dismissal spell, what happens? The shadow dancer didn't "choose" to dismiss it, so I guess the penalty outlined doesn't apply, AND the shadow isn't destroyed. Does anything happen? Will the shadow be able to return if the shadow dancer wants it? Will there be a 30 day wait?

How have you guys run this?

[Java Man]

I don't aee how the shadow is a valid target for Dismissal.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The shadow is an undead creature not an extraplanar creature. It is not affected by the spell. What the text is talking about is if the shadow dancer decided to send the shadow way, not the spell. The description makes that clear by the stating “the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it”.

[Belafon]

Preemptive Acknowledgement:
The language of the ability could be clearer. In particular the fact that the ability is named "summon shadow" is a nit that can be picked.

However:
The Shadowdancer's shadow companion is NOT an extraplanar entity and therefore isn't a valid target for the dismissal spell (assuming you are on your home plane). The language of "the shadowdancer can choose to dismiss it" is similar to a wizards familiar which can be replaced "if the familiar is dismissed, lost or dies." "Dismiss," in these cases, is used in the sense of "release from service" (the phrase used for a druid's animal companion). Indeed, in the text you quoted it's referred to as a "shadow companion."

The Pathfinder designers didn't always use the same terms to mean the same thing. Sometimes this was deliberate (in order to avoid boring repetition) and sometimes it was different people writing different things. So we have to go from context.

For another data point, a 5th-level paladin can "gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed." However if it dies the paladin "may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level." If you try to go overliteral on the word "summon" (which appears in the shadow companion feature as well) then you come to the conclusion that a paladin's first mount is a native creature but any replacement mounts are summoned creatures. That's...not right. Summon is used in those places not as the spell descriptor but to mean "bring to your side."

Spoiler:

I almost used the phrase "call to your side," then remembered that calling is itself a spell descriptor.

[Azothath]

Would Dismissal:A5 work on a Skeleton? Wight? Ghost?
so incorporeal undead (in PF1) are from the Material plane and not affected. The incorporeal ability has replaced etheral and shadowplane (flavor) connections from DnD 3.5.
I'd agree that later refinements in game jargon made the original text somewhat nebulous and nobody went back to fix what 'wasn't broke'.

The real question is does the spell have no effect and is expended or does the GM say "nope, invalid target thus can't cast the spell" so the caster retains the spell. that's a whole nutter can o worms

[Diego Rossi]

Azothath wrote:

The real question is does the spell have no effect and is expended or does the GM say "nope, invalid target thus can't cast the spell" so the caster retains the spell. that's a whole nutter can o worms

CRB wrote:

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

A target is selected after you have cast a spell. An invalid target doesn't roll back time. The spell fails, but it is still cast.

[vegetalss4]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The shadow is an undead creature not an extraplanar creature. It is not affected by the spell. What the text is talking about is if the shadow dancer decided to send the shadow way, not the spell. The description makes that clear by the stating “the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it”.

Extraplanar is not mutually exclusive with Undead, I think you are confusing it with Outsider.

Extraplanar is just a subtype literally any creature gets whenever they are a different plane from their native one.
The bestiaries just add the subtype to creatures expected to be encountered outside of their native plane but that's just a shorthand as the actual rules for the subtype makes clear.

Azothath wrote:

Would Dismissal:A5 work on a Skeleton? Wight? Ghost?

If the Wight or Skeleton is not currently on their native plane it'd work perfectly well on them both.

Azothath wrote:

so incorporeal undead (in PF1) are from the Material plane and not affected. The incorporeal ability has replaced etheral and shadowplane (flavor) connections from DnD 3.5.

That's not actually true the Incorporeal subtype and is straight from 3.5, (slightly changed in that magical but non-ghost-touch attacks now do 50% damage with a 50% chance other effects either don't work or has their full effect, while in 3.5 it was just 50% chance of no/full effect for everything magical but not-ghost-touch).

Now a lot of incorporeal undead in Golarion are native to the prime material, but that's not universal (not even in that specific setting), there's also some Shadows native to the Shadow Plane for instance and ghosts would presumably either be native to the same plane as when they where alive or where they died depending on DM judgement.

To return to the original question:
Whether a Shadowdancers Shadow could get banished by Dismissal would depend on whether it was currently on it's native plane. If it is then it's immune but if it isn't then it can get sent back to that plane.

Which plane is it's native plane would depend on where the Shadowdancer summoned it from. Which is unspecified in the ability, and therefore a DM call.
Personally I have always imagined it as being made from the dancers own (literal) shadow and would thus see it as native as the same plane as the shadowdancer, or perhaps the plane the ability was first used on. But it could be any plane with shadows native to it, like the material plane, shadow plane, negative energy plane or even certain layers of the Abyss.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

The bolded section specifies that the shadow dancer has to dismiss it. So, unless the shadowdancer is a spell caster who for some reason decided to cast dismissal on his own shadow companion while on a different plane, the spell does not cause the shadowdancer to gain a negative level. Even if the shadow companion is on a different plane and another person successfully casts dismissal on it the shadowdancer still does not gain a negative level because it was not the shadowdancer who dismissed the shadow companion.

[Azothath]

vegetalss4 wrote:

Azothath wrote:

Would Dismissal:A5 work on a Skeleton? Wight? Ghost?

If the Wight or Skeleton is not currently on their native plane it'd work perfectly well on them both.

that's circular logic and presumes the creature has been transported to another plane BEFORE the dismissal spell is cast. That is a lot of IFs. Those creature have no way to get to another plane. If a skeleton was encountered on an outer plane the game would assume that it was created there (aka someone cast Animate Dead or necromantic energy created it). So assuming it is common practice to create undead on the material plane and then export them via interdimensional teleport/gate to somewhere, that's just improbable and silly.

vegetalss4 (in another post above) wrote:

... Extraplanar is just a subtype literally any creature gets whenever they are a different plane from their native one.

The bestiaries just add the subtype to creatures expected to be encountered outside of their native plane but that's just a shorthand as the actual rules for the subtype makes clear.

lol, so you know the Shadow's monster entry does not have the extraplanar subtype and that Dismissal proves ineffective. Sure there can be extenuating circumstances in a Home Game.

[Azothath]

vegetalss4 wrote:

Azothath wrote:

so incorporeal undead (in PF1) are from the Material plane and not affected. The incorporeal ability has replaced etheral and shadowplane (flavor) connections from DnD 3.5.

That's not actually true the Incorporeal subtype ...

Now a lot of incorporeal undead in Golarion are native to the prime material, but that's not universal (not even in that specific setting), there's also some Shadows native to the Shadow Plane for instance and ghosts would presumably either be native to the same plane as when they where alive or where they died depending on DM judgement.

it's not about incorporeal.

I'll add to the inference in my statement and that should clarify it. There's no mention of the shadow plane in a shadow's monster entry nor the ethereal plane in a ghost's entry(certainly a change from DnD3 where their etherealness granted them their incorporeal state). For Ghosts this is a change from the OGL. Neither has the extraplanar subtype.
A GM has to have knowledge of the extra-interdimensional nature of a creature to allow the Dismissal spell to be effective. Adding that via scenario descriptive text is part of RAW. Adding that via game spell history or GM fiat/plot machinations are part of a Home Game and not RAW.

[Temperans]

Shadows are generally not from the shadow plane and are often found in uninhabited ruins. Even Greater Shadows don't need to be from the shadow plane as they could get the energy from killing a lot of creatures or contact with a lot of negative energy.

So, no Shadows are not "extradimensional" by default. Just like a Gnome may be deeply connected to fey but are not fey in of themselves.

**************************

* P.S. If you are going to use Extraplanar you should read what it says:

Quote:

This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have it when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a Transitive Plane (the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow).