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Primogeniture is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn legitimate child to inherit the parent's entire or main estate in preference to shared inheritance among all or some children, any illegitimate child or any collateral relative.
Let's say the head of House Cansellarion (Alexeara...long story, don't ask) in Westcrown bore twins - a boy and a girl.
Let's also say Alexeara did not marry the twins' father and later died intestate (without a will).
Are the twins the rightful heirs to the Cansellarion estate and fortune in Westcrown even though they were born illegitimate?
What about sex? Does it matter which (boy or girl) was born first? This is a agnatic primogeniture (firstborn boy to inherit) vs. matrilineal primogeniture (firstborn girl to inherit) vs. absolute primogeniture (can be either to inherit) question.
Thanks.
I don’t believe there are any sources directly relating to this idea.
Chelish law is described as being byzantine and labyrinthine so is likely more complex than the legitimate/illegitimate and strictly gender based succession.
The fact that the two greatest Thrune rulers have been women also makes it unlikely that they’d have sex as a determining factor for succession.
Cheliax is also known for their fiercely competitive meritocracy. I would guess that there’s a complex legal code ensuring that the most worthy heir is the one who inherits, rather than being determined by anything as simple as birth order.
Cheliax is descended from Taldor, and Taldor did have primogeniture until
However, it's unclear how much they changed or made even more strict or confounding their laws.
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If I remember correctly, Taldor is also considered extremely unusual among Inner Sea nations for retaining primogeniture, an archaic and backwards legacy of its imperial period that most other nations have moved past. Cheliax being ruled by powerful queens doesn't necessarily mean it's ditched primogeniture, some of Britain's most famous monarchs were queens like Elizabeth I and II, Victoria, etc. Even places that preference male inheritance will sometimes reluctantly tolerate a woman on the throne if there is no successor that won't cause a war. But given Cheliax's infernal obsession with contracts, I'd be surprised if some lawyer or other hasn't found a way to bypass whatever Taldan archaicisms might obstruct a female heir if one could pay them enough to claim her inheritance.
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If I remember correctly, Taldor is also considered extremely unusual among Inner Sea nations for retaining primogeniture, an archaic and backwards legacy of its imperial period that most other nations have moved past. Cheliax being ruled by powerful queens doesn't necessarily mean it's ditched primogeniture, some of Britain's most famous monarchs were queens like Elizabeth I and II, Victoria, etc. Even places that preference male inheritance will sometimes reluctantly tolerate a woman on the throne if there is no successor that won't cause a war. But given Cheliax's infernal obsession with contracts, I'd be surprised if some lawyer or other hasn't found a way to bypass whatever Taldan archaicisms might obstruct a female heir if one could pay them enough to claim her inheritance.
If I recall correctly, male-preference primogeniture was only the rule for the Primogen Throne, and was not the law for other inheritances even in Taldor. That the rule for the Primogen Throne should be brought into line with the country's other inheritance rules was a major argument of Eutropia's for changing it. By contrast, given the chaotic Thrune succession, I would be very surprised if there was anything resembling a regular rule for it at all, with succession being decided instead by bespoke wills.
The Thrune succession so far has gone:
Abrogail I Thrune (seized power irregularly in a coup)
Antoninus Thrune (son of Abrogail I Thrune)
Terthule Thrune (cousin of Antoninus Thrune, probably the son of Abrogail I Thrune's brother or sister)
Carellia Thrune (niece of Terthule Thrune, i.e., the daughter of Terthule Thrune's brother or sister)
Infrexus Thrune (cousin of Carellia Thrune, probably the son of Terthule Thrune's brother or sister)
Abrogail II Thrune (great-granddaughter of Abrogail I Thrune, probably the granddaughter of Antoninus Thrune or a brother or sister of his)
That is to say, the succession, at minimum, bounces back and forth between lines at least once (leaving Abrogail I's line after Antoninus before returning to it with Abrogail II), a thing which doesn't make sense if lineal descent rules of any sort are being followed.
Not that the rule for the throne is necessarily the rule for anyone or anything else.
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It appears absolute primogeniture is a thing in at least Avistan but not in Cheliax, at least not since the Thrunes took over.
I found this little nugget on pgs. 6-7 in Cheliax, The Infernal Empire:
Because House Thrune has no established line of inheritance, succession of the crown has not followed the general practice of absolute primogeniture.
So, it doesn't appear any sort of notion of an estate passing to the firstborn is a thing in Cheliax, at least not for the Thrunes.
It's probably no longer a thing for any of the other Chelaxian noble families, either.
The question of whether legitimacy is needed for any offspring who would stand to inherit is still unclear.
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So, it doesn't appear any sort of notion of an estate passing to the firstborn is a thing in Cheliax, at least not for the Thrunes.
Going by the text you found, it appears to be exactly the opposite: absolute primogeniture is the general rule for the descent of estates in Cheliax, but there are exceptions to that general rule, including that the crown descends according to some special rule, and that the general rule may be modified by contracts or wills.
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If Cheliax still retains some Imperial Roman flavour in the same way that Taldor echoes something Byzantine and Ravounel is reviving a Republic, "legitimacy" was probably once a formal recognition by the Senate. Romans could simply adopt an heir if they hadn't fathered one, and when an Emperor did this their legitimacy was acknowledged by the Senate, mostly as a pretence that the Emperor wasn't a totalitarian dictator. Fortunately for House Thrune, the Senate seems to have remained in Taldor and Cheliax doesn't have its own equivalent, so they don't have to pretend.
If an heir needs anything more for legitimacy than the declaration of their predecessor, the old Senate has likely been replaced by the feudal noble houses. So legitimacy is probably what you might expect from the medieval period - what the reigning Majestor/Majestrix says it is, with the ruling nobility making shows of acknowledgement to give the heir the appearance of the need for their endorsement while publicly displaying their loyalty. Add to that the diabolical pacts that House Thrune maintains with Hell to guarantee and protect their position. I don't know much about Hell's Rebels, I didn't get very far into it when my group tried to play it, but IIRC the legimate claim of House Thrune is a major overarching plot point, so it might be worth reading.
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I don't know much about Hell's Rebels, I didn't get very far into it when my group tried to play it, but IIRC the legimate claim of House Thrune is a major overarching plot point, so it might be worth reading.
Hell's Rebels doesn't have anything to say about the legitimacy of House Thrune beyond what you'd expect (that Abrogail I sold her soul to Asmodeus in exchange for the military support needed to conquer the country), but the case of the Urvis seat on the Board of Governors does support adoption and wills being legitimate ways to create heirs for the purpose of passing on estates.
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One thing about Authoritarian governments (and Cheliax is assuredly one) is that they are governed by rules, but the people in power will make up new rules to ensure that their desired outcomes will come to pass. So "what the order of succession is supposed to be" is less important than "who does the person wielding power actually prefer to inherit."
One does not, after all, assume that Chellish courts are especially fair, even Chellish probate courts. The default is likely "absolute primogeniture" but Cheliax has lawyers who will argue otherwise and judges who are persuadable.
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Thanks for all the male/female primogeniture info.
How about the legitimacy issue? Does it matter if the noble's child/children are illegitimate or not as far as being able to inherit is concerned?
For me, Cheliax is a legalistic society, due to all the influences of Hell. Written Contracts being vital. So in this case legitimacy would be from marriage contracts, adoption contracts, wills, birth documents, and so on. So it could be that the children are born out of wedlock but they might have a birth certificate notified by the local asmodean priestess that they are legitimate.
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Primogeniture is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn legitimate child to inherit the parent's entire or main estate in preference to shared inheritance among all or some children, any illegitimate child or any collateral relative.Let's say the head of House Cansellarion (Alexeara...long story, don't ask) in Westcrown bore twins - a boy and a girl.
Let's also say Alexeara did not marry the twins' father and later died intestate (without a will).
Are the twins the rightful heirs to the Cansellarion estate and fortune in Westcrown even though they were born illegitimate?
What about sex? Does it matter which (boy or girl) was born first? This is a agnatic primogeniture (firstborn boy to inherit) vs. matrilineal primogeniture (firstborn girl to inherit) vs. absolute primogeniture (can be either to inherit) question.
Thanks.
Regarding your specific example:
Are the children of age? Because if not, likely the question of inheritance would wait until they reached their majority and the extended family would likely appoint a guardian that would be de facto lord of the Estate.
In a nation like Cheliax if some "unfortunate accident" were to occur with the twins, why then surely, doting Uncle Olaf who had been taking such good care of the estate since the mother's tragic death would be within his rights to claim the estate for himself, "the children would want it that way".
Now if the children in fact faked their deaths, and found some adult adventurers who might like to assist with ousting Uncle Olaf, well that might make for an interesting hook?
On the other hand if the twins are in their majority already and can't come to some manner of agreement, then an ugly legal battle might ensue, and maybe there is a will hidden somewhere secretly in the estate, and surely a group of savvy adventurers might be able to find Mother's Real Safe and solve this legal squabble once and for all?
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Wonder what's the DC to find out the secret will is forged ?
Not as high as the DC to survive the Glyph of Warding set on the scroll set to the trigger word "illegitimate":P