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Stone Shield... It's trying, but it's got problems. At a basic level, it's like a standard raise a shield action, except that if you use it to take a blow, it crumbles into nothing rather than taking damage, and you have to regather the thing. It even gives you extra fort save. It seems fair... but the devil is in the details.
- It assigns your Gather. As such, it cannot be used with Kinetic Weapon.
- Raising the shield is an impulse action, and thus provokes opportunity attacks. Like... really?
- the shield block part is really inefficient. If we assume a Dedicated Gate, it's going to cost you a reaction (to block) and an action (to gather afterwards), and you won't have the shield bonuses for any other attacks that may come your way before your turn. The gather also provokes opportunity attacks.
Suggested solution: give a feat... level 6, say, that causes your gather and impulse actions - or even just the ones that don't overflow - to not provoke opportunity attacks. Maybe instead a lvl 8/10 version that makes them not provoke reactions? A lvl 2/4 version that jsut cranks your defenses against attacks made in reaction to same? Something. The Earth Kineticist is stacked high with "I'm trying to be a tank". If you want that to actually work as a thing, they need some way to not provoke attacks all the time. Kinetic Weapon is not an adequate response to the problem.
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It has a lot of issues and I feel it's a trap option.
It says 1 action, but it's really 2 actions. The other action is just hidden. And if I'm defending I can't do anything else that's cool. It's too restrictive. I want to love it, hut I hate it.
If it didn't provoke... well, there are plenty of fighters out there who raise shields but never block, you know? And +2AC/+2Fort isn't terrible for that.
At the same time, it also isn't great, since there's a shiled out there at a pretty reasonable price that offers +2AC and +1 to all saves under the same conditions... and won't cost you a class feat. So Earth Shield at bare minimum needs to have the shield block be viable in order to make it a playable alternative, and with the current two-action cost, it's not, really. now there are some high-level options that will let you gather as free action, but....
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I disagree that it prevents you from using your elemental weapon, but that is something that should probably be clarified.
The real issue is that absolutely every kineticist should be buying a shield, raising it when appropriate, and never blocking with it (because you don't have shield block.) Since you never need both hands to do your kineticist stuff (I'd honestly rather see more stuff compete for hands than actions, which are tight.)
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I think if the shield action and the gather action didn't provoke attacks, earth shield is probably good as is. It starts off as more damage prevention than any other shield, and gets better and better. It makes the Earth Tank work, but with the trade off that if the enemy really comes after you hard, you are probably spending 2 out of 3 actions a turn on your defense. Most of the time, you don't expend it and stick with a +2 to AC and Fort. But if you really get slammed hard, there are few characters that wouldn't happily trade one extra action to not get knocked out from a particularly hard hit.
But that really breaks down if you are taking tons of opportunity attacks for trying to set it all up.
I agree that the hands issue should be clarified and the shield and weapon build should be possible.
Elemental Weapon is currently a joke. If you use a melee elemental weapon you can't use ranged blasts so if you want to do a ranged blast you need to use another action Gathering Element again to change the weapon to normal element shape. And at close range to do anything than Strike with your weapon causes AoO so you are unable to use the Stone Shield in a safer way facing an AoO opponent.
From range, your weapon will be restricted to 1H non-throwable weapon what's usually means that's worse than your Elemental Blast.
I see little reason to fight with Kineticist at melee. So Stone Shied currently is more to protect against long ranged attacks and some eventual opponent assault.
Also I agree with Unicore. Stone Shield is like any shield, gives same AC and use it to block at cost of Gather Element again is a choice, if we compare it with Shield cantrip, the cantrip has less AC and if used to block you simply cannot cast it again. At last the Stone Shield gives you the option to cast it again.
IMO Impulse trait needs a review removing manipulate trait from it to allow Stone Shield to work and not only this I think it need to be removed from Elemental Blast too (or Elemental Blast need to change to a stance and the Blasts to melee and ranged unarmed Strikes). Manipulate could be manually add to other Impulses instead. I also thing that manipulate trait need to be removed from Gather Element, this breaks the element <-> weapon tactical changes at melee range.
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So normally people aren't generally happy to actually block when that means "my shield will break and then I have to stop raising it, and maybe I will have to buy a new one if I blocked too much damage".
Except for the whole AoO problem (which should probably be fixed somehow) the benefit of Stone Shield is that the only cost of actually blocking (and you can block quite a bit of damage) is "it costs you an action."
My next character I think is an Earth/Water Kineticist who will switch between Stone Shield and Deflecting Wave when I have to block or use the deflecting wave reaction using Cycling Blast.
...I don't think it really needs to change since it scales so well for a shield...
It's hardness scales is currently overpowered. Probably will be nerfed.
Just compare the Sturdy Shield scale, the Shield cantrip scale and the Stone Shield:
LvL 1: 6
LvL 3: 9
LvL 5: 12
LvL 7: 15
LvL 9: 18
LvL 11: 21 (here pass the lvl 20 Supreme Sturdy Shield)
LvL 13: 24
LvL 15: 27 (here pass the lvl 17 Shield cantrip)
LvL 17: 30
LvL 19: 33
It's hardness is basically 50% stronger than a Sturdy Shield. This don't feel right. Probably it's hardness will change to something like +1 to hardness every level.
Except for the whole AoO problem (which should probably be fixed somehow) the benefit of Stone Shield is that the only cost of actually blocking (and you can block quite a bit of damage) is "it costs you an action."
Would be fun if instead of stay off for 10 minutes if Shield Cantrip could be recast with 2-actions.
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Shield is one of the few that are worth the extra action. Because you are only using shield block if you really need it.
Otherwise it's an action for +2 ac and fort. Wich is crazy good.
Easy there sunshine. Even if you never used the shield block. +2 ac AND fort for one action is well above the curve.
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I don't think "it's better than the sturdy shield" is a problem. A class should be better at something it's class is about than "you went shopping" lets someone else be.
Like it's not a problem if the Stone Shield is better than someone who just bought a good shield, it's a problem if it's better than the Champion who has invested in a lot of things for their shield (and they have a huge action advantage over you.) You're supposed to be better at "blocking damage" than the random Rogue who bought a shield since you can make huge rocks orbit you and they can't.
...I don't think it really needs to change since it scales so well for a shield...It's hardness scales is currently overpowered. Probably will be nerfed.
Just compare the Sturdy Shield scale, the Shield cantrip scale and the Stone Shield:
LvL 1: 6
LvL 3: 9
LvL 5: 12
LvL 7: 15
LvL 9: 18
LvL 11: 21 (here pass the lvl 20 Supreme Sturdy Shield)
LvL 13: 24
LvL 15: 27 (here pass the lvl 17 Shield cantrip)
LvL 17: 30
LvL 19: 33
It's hardness is basically 50% stronger than a Sturdy Shield. This don't feel right. Probably it's hardness will change to something like +1 to hardness every level.
Except for the whole AoO problem (which should probably be fixed somehow) the benefit of Stone Shield is that the only cost of actually blocking (and you can block quite a bit of damage) is "it costs you an action."Would be fun if instead of stay off for 10 minutes if Shield Cantrip could be recast with 2-actions."It's hardness is basically 50% stronger than a Sturdy Shield. This don't feel right. Probably it's hardness will change to something like +1 to hardness every level."
Then it will be absolutely useless.
Why!?
So you prefer to use a general feat to buy a Shield Block feat and use your gold to buy a very expensive Sturdy Shield that will occupying one of your hands? And if you block too much high damage you risk to breaking it making it useless for the rest of the encounter?Or you prefer a Shield cantrip with +1 AC and just one block reaction?
Also remember that Stone Shield block give +2 to Fort saves too.
In the end if the Paizo just fix the AoO risk and keep this feat as it are it will simply turn into the best shield of the game by far.
...it's a problem if it's better than the Champion who has invested in a lot of things for their shield (and they have a huge action advantage over you.) You're supposed to be better at "blocking damage" than the random Rogue who bought a shield since you can make huge rocks orbit you and they can't.
This already happen. The Stone Shield already has more hardness than a Sturdy Shield improved by Shield Ally and even the extra HP of Shield Paragon looses it's importance over a shield that can be remade so easily.
The only thing that currently prevents the Stone Shield to be really useful is AoO.
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Does the Kinetecist who spends the Action to create the Shield and gain the AC bonus "until the start of their next turn" STILL retain that AC bonus if they then use and Overflow ability and the element/shield dissipates?
As far as I can tell that AC bonus is not at all contingent on the Shield existing at all and additionally doing this would free up another hand... nothing in ANY of the rules from what I've found suggests that the benefit is or can be removed unless I'm missing something from the CRB.
Of course, they wouldn't be able to Shield Block with it since it is gone already but... what about that AC bonus?
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In a playtest I ran last night, I saw earth shield used for the first time.
The player used it for the +2 AC and fort mostly, but when they went up against a more powerful Solo enemy, the player started using it to block with and it was eating more than half of the enemy’s first attack damage pretty regularly. At level 6, 12 hardness was very, very noticeable. It was even better than difficult terrain action stealing because it essentially took away 2 first attack crits in that encounter.
I think earth shield is a better tanking ability than the kineticist is getting credit for.
I think the biggest issue is that it doesn't offer enough over a normal shield. But give me 2h elemental blasts and that value increases a lot because you could earth shield while using blasts at high damage?
What more do you think is possible? It's already a free scaling shield with unlimited hit points.
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I think earth shield is a better tanking ability than the kineticist is getting credit for.
Earth Shield makes you very, very sturdy. But when you get into "this eats 2/3 of your actions every round" territory it's appreciated, but not fun. I think the way to resolve this pain point is to somehow lessen the action tax for gathering. Let us do it for free more often, let us combine it with something else, etc.
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Earth shield is better than a kineticist carrying a shield. The Kineticist has to get, and then spend a general feat to use shield block at all. Even then, their shield options are pretty limited and they are going to have to pick up an archetype to do anything nearly as valuable with it as the earth kineticist can just do with one feat.
An Earth Kineticist and a champion together are probably going to be the tankiest front line in PF2.
Earth shield for solo encounter tanking is difficult to use if you are not going to commit to only gathering Earth for that encounter.
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Earth shield is better than a kineticist carrying a shield.
Not in all cases: if you're looking for bonus to AC , any old shield will do. And on a class with sooooooo many things wantng you to spend your actions/round, an ancestry feat for Shield might be a better bet than a constant slow effect/2 action activity from the Earth Shield.
An Earth Kineticist and a champion together are probably going to be the tankiest front line in PF2.
If tanky is what you're going for, it does a good job but it doesn't leave much room for much else. This means that you're giving up on the majority of your class feats in combat as they give you activities you just don't have the actions for and use the Earth Shield.
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You only need to use the earth shield to block really big hits. You could even pick up a standard shield with shield block for moderate encounters and just use earth shield for tougher encounters or when you need the fort save bonus.
It does eat a lot of actions when you use it to block, but the per level damage resistance you get from it makes a very big difference from what other classes can achieve in those tough boss encounters.
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The other fact is that even you using Stone Shield always this don't means that you will use it to block every round. This only happens when some opponent attack the char and hit it. Many rounds you will pass without need to block.
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Earth shield is better than a kineticist carrying a shield. The Kineticist has to get, and then spend a general feat to use shield block at all. Even then, their shield options are pretty limited and they are going to have to pick up an archetype to do anything nearly as valuable with it as the earth kineticist can just do with one feat.
The general feat for shield block is a lot cheaper than the class feat for Stone Shield. Now, Stone Shield does let you skip out on the otherwise necessary crafting skill, and it does have better DR, but having shield block cost a reaction and an action is still a lot more expensive than just costing a reaction.
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The main problem of Stone Shield IMO still the AoO. During Playtests AoO shows to be devastating agains melee kineticists. Looses your shield/gather element is a minor problem when the mere fact of cast the Stone Shield provokes AoO. This Impulse really need loose the manipulate trait!
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I'm personally of the opinion that only overflow impulses should provoke.
Normal impulses are, to my mind, like martial arts katas. It's just the overflow ones where you go "all out" and can't effectively protect yourself.
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I think the easiest fix is just remove the whole "turning your gathered element into the shield and" part (as well as all reference to being able to use it as gathering element). That way it's basically just a better version of the Shield spell, minus the ability to block magic missile.
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I think the reason they gave the Stone Shield feat an action is so that you couldn't shape your Earth element into a weapon (if you had the Elemental Weapon feat) *and* a shield (if you took both feats) with a single action - something you could easily do if you chose the single Elemental Earth Gate.
Since the PF1E version of Gather Power was a supernatural ability (which didn't provoke), I think the Gather Element action should remove the Manipulate trait; however, since not all creates have the attack of opportunity capability, that may be the reason why they included it.