Weapon Infusion and Mark for Death?

[Houngan]

Hi all,
Does the Assassin Dedication Feat Mark for Death ability work as written with the Kineticist Elemental Blast Weapon Infusion Feat?
Another way to ask is, do Elemental Blasts in the "form of a weapon" and with the Agile Trait count as "agile and finesse weapons"?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[shroudb]

No, weapon infusion gives weapon traits to the blasts, but they are still Blasts and not weapons.

[Houngan]

shroudb wrote:

No, weapon infusion gives weapon traits to the blasts, but they are still Blasts and not weapons.

Thank you for your fast reply!

For the sake of discussion, what is a weapon? I could not find a definition in the books for this and weapons do not have an identifying 'Weapon' Trait.
Weapon Infusion gives a Blast the form, shape, and melee or ranged Traits, of a weapon. I find it strange that this could not be a weapon but a chair or a vase could be.

[shroudb]

Houngan wrote:

shroudb wrote:

No, weapon infusion gives weapon traits to the blasts, but they are still Blasts and not weapons.

Thank you for your fast reply!

For the sake of discussion, what is a weapon? I could not find a definition in the books for this and weapons do not have an identifying 'Weapon' Trait.
Weapon Infusion gives a Blast the form, shape, and melee or ranged Traits, of a weapon. I find it strange that this could not be a weapon but a chair or a vase could be.

The short version is "anything on a weapon's table unless a specific rule names an exception". Pf2 unlike pf1 is specifically written with common English in mind.

There is clear language that separates Weapon and non-weapon attacks. As an easy example, Unarmed is not a Weapon, and a lot of feats only work with Weapons, only with Unarmed, or with both.

There is debate to the extend that Impovised weapons count as weapons, as an example "can you put a striking rune on a vase?".
But even in those, Weapon is still the physical object you attack with.

So, at the very least, a weapon is an object you attack with.
The attack rolls for melee and ranged weapons are clearly defined.
The damage rolls of melee and ranged weapons are clearly defined.
The things that affect weapons are also defined.

Elemental Blasts specifically fail to adhere to all the pre-described rules of weapons.

They do not use either melee weapon or ranged weapon attack rolls. Instead they do impulse attack rolls.
They do not do neither melee or ranged weapon damage. Instead they do impulse damage.
They do not belong to any weapon proficiency category.
They do not get weapon runes.
They do not belong to a weapon subcategory.
They are not even an object.

They are specifically called out as "an impulse" rather than as a "weapon".

So, without explicit language overriding the current rules ("the blast counts as a weapon"), there's no justification for it to be counted as one.

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An easy way to look at it is that you don't get Weapon Specialization bonuses with your Blasts.

The kineticist in general was written to not interact with either the Spell or Weapon system (he doesn't make Strikes nor does he Casts a spell, he's just using an Impulse) in order for the writers to have more freedom to design him without having to worry about interactions with prexisting stuff that is either one or the other (No power attacking with Blasts as an example)

[Houngan]

Thank you again.
You are always thorough and well thought out!

[Captain Morgan]

General rule of thumb: you should assume martial feats won't work with blasts. They also don't make Strikes. The play test kineticist had compatibility with some of those options, but they opted to remove that so the class could use CON instead of strength or dex, and could have a higher powered baseline without worrying about multi class shenanigans. IIRC something similar happened with spell strike.