Paralyzed Condition Question

[Gronk de'Morcaine]

I have always treated this one way, but everyone in the group thought it was another way. I know, DM's call. We just like to know what the 'official' rules are and work from there.

Paralyzed::

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature f lying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot f lap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

I had always interpreted this as RL paralysis. Collapse to the ground and drop anything in hand. To me "frozen in place" meant cannot crawl from current square.

Everyone else has always treated this as 'frozen' like a statue. I suppose I would have called that 'petrified' or something like that.

What is the RAW interpretation of this?

[Diego Rossi]

As the condition doesn't say that you fall on the ground, you don't fall to the ground, unless the kind of movement you are using requires some kind of action to continue (flying, as an example).

[Azothath]

as you are posting to the Rules Forum you'll get RAW centric answers, commentary(opinions), along with some GM advice. Quoting Archives Of Nethys(AoN) is pretty standard (saves typing).

As always, the official rules are RAW and any FAQs or official Paizo errata. You read it and similar rules and your GM interprets that for your home game. The Game is a Work of Art and not a technical manual so it can be unclear, inconsistent, and contradictory.

Paralyzed condition, Paralysis Ability, CRB FAQ.
seems pretty clear. Upon failing a save target creature becomes frozen/unmoving/immobile and can only take mental actions. No dropping things in hand, falling Prone from standing, or crawling away. Check couple of FAQs above.
Petrified, like Paralyzed is a condition and usually a "keyword" in the game, something with a defined meaning thus the two are not equivalent.

[Gronk de'Morcaine]

Ok, in the future, I will go with them becoming statues. Still seems wierd to me.

Azothath wrote:

...

Petrified, like Paralyzed is a condition and usually a "keyword" in the game, something with a defined meaning thus the two are not equivalent.

I agree they are not equivalent. However, your interpretation is essentially equivalent.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Even in real life paralysis is not always the same. In some cases, paralysis is caused by your muscles locking up, so they do not move. In those cases, you don’t drop things and often cannot let go of things. In other cases, being paralyzed causes all the muscles to relax so you do drop things.

When you are paralyzed some muscles (like heart and lungs) still continue to function, if they did not you would die if paralyzed for too long. This would indicate that unless it states otherwise a paralyzed creature does not fall down and it automatic functions continue to work.

[Hugo Rune]

I rule that the character falls down. With STR and DEX being 0 they no longer have the strength and/or balance to remain standing. As per Mysterious Stranger's comments above all the muscles would relax so they would also drop anything they are holding.

Petrified, would be like the muscle locked paralysis. But it is still likely that the character would fall. A person petrified mid stride is inherently unstable, though they are unlikely to release anything they are holding.

[Diego Rossi]

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:

Ok, in the future, I will go with them becoming statues. Still seems wierd to me.

Azothath wrote:

...

Petrified, like Paralyzed is a condition and usually a "keyword" in the game, something with a defined meaning thus the two are not equivalent.

I agree they are not equivalent. However, your interpretation is essentially equivalent.

Very different ways to remove the condition, and very different ways to give it. They are no equivalent at all.

[Diego Rossi]

Hugo Rune wrote:

I rule that the character falls down. With STR and DEX being 0 they no longer have the strength and/or balance to remain standing. As per Mysterious Stranger's comments above all the muscles would relax so they would also drop anything they are holding.

Petrified, would be like the muscle locked paralysis. But it is still likely that the character would fall. A person petrified mid stride is inherently unstable, though they are unlikely to release anything they are holding.

You are turning the "Paralyzed" condition to "Paralyzed and Prone", essentially increasing its power. Note that it doesn't say that the paralyzed creature STR and DEx are 0, it says "effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0". The actual scores don't change.

We can discuss what effective, but without the devs input, it will be a personal interpretation.
What matter in the Rule forum is that the condition doesn't say you fall prone.

[Hugo Rune]

@Diego Rossi: Interesting take on effective v actual. If the character has an effective STR of 0 are they effectively Unconscious (one of the effects of having STR 0)? Do unconscious remain standing or do they fall prone...

[Diego Rossi]

Hugo Rune wrote:

@Diego Rossi: Interesting take on effective v actual. If the character has an effective STR of 0 are they effectively Unconscious (one of the effects of having STR 0)? Do unconscious remain standing or do they fall prone...

Quote:

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.

Is it ability damage or drain? No.

Quote:

Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die.

Not an ability penalty, but it is more similar to it.

"Effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0", as I read it, means that when you need to make any strength or dexterity based check you fail it, and your CMB is 0. As I already said, without a dev input I am giving my opinion, not quoting a rule.

[Pizza Lord]

I tend to run it as the 'muscle-locked' and frozen in position (autonomous actions like breathing still work, maybe you can kind of shift your eyes but not turn your head). Only if the paralysis happened in the middle of an appropriate action would I likely have someone fall over. Like if they were actually in the middle of running or charging or were on a slope when they got paralyzed. Just by itself I don't have someone fall over or release items in their hands.

Unless the specific paralysis ability somehow mentions 'floppy limbs' or noodly arms and limp muscles, but the general description seems to be the frozen in place kind.

[Hugo Rune]

The problem with the muscle lock model is that it doesn't represent a STR of 0. If one were to hold a sword at arms length (or even had an outstretched arm) holding that in position requires strength. A character with STR 0 would have their arm drop and the hand would not have the strength to keep hold of the sword. Similarly, they would not have the strength or balance to maintain a straight leg and remain standing. So they will fall prone.

[Mysterious Stranger]

When either your STR or DEX reaches 0 you become unconscious. Since a paralyzed character can take purely mental actions that is obviously not taking place. If having an effective STR and DEX of 0 does not impose unconsciousness on the target, why does it have any of the other penalties of having a 0 stat? As far as I know what happens at effective STR 0 is not defined anywhere in the rules. This is clearly an oversight in the game but will never be addressed.

Because effective DEX and STR are not defined the only thing we can do is to go by the description of what is actually in paralyzed. Since it does not mention dropping items or falling prone you do not. Also, the description of paralyzed specifically calls out that a winged creature cannot flap its wings so falls. If all creatures fall when paralyzed, why are they calling out that winged creatures fall?

[Diego Rossi]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Also, the description of paralyzed specifically calls out that a winged creature cannot flap its wings so falls. If all creatures fall when paralyzed, why are they calling out that winged creatures fall?

It is something that was specified because in previous editions flying with a spell or most SU abilities was purely mental, and you could fly taking mental actions even if paralyzed. Now flying is part of a move action or a free action (hoovering). As you can't action while paralyzed the text is redundant.

Note that the FAQ about the fly spell and paralyzation is relatively late (2015), so there is no guarantee that that was the initial interpretation when the CRB was written.

[Azothath]

Commentary
FYI some common terms
paralysis
catalepsy {waxy flexibility}
petrified

you can refer to the Conditions link above for those meanings(effects) in the game. Knowing the encyclopedic description can help you describe the conditions in your game.
While paralyzed and petrified (past tense) are different things, the effects in the game are different. If we pretend that the conditions in the game have the same effects it still does not make the terms the same. That's a common logical misstep about how logical relationships(inferences) work.

The Game is just in common american english with descriptive writing that is meant to engage and entertain. People have to interpret RAW into their actual game. I wouldn't mince the text too fine (over sampling) seeking meaning. That's not to say a phrase or two doesn't change the direction of a sentence.
IMO the Game is a descriptive (very poor) model of common experience (notice I did not say Reality). Don't try to seek real meaning in the Game as it's far worse than Newtonian physics (which we know is wrong in the details). You don't quite see this in PF2 where the model is about game play (rather than common experience) with better math underpinning the rules. D&D5 is simpler but I believe gives better general results when it comes to game play than PF2.

[bbangerter]

Hugo Rune wrote:

@Diego Rossi: Interesting take on effective v actual. If the character has an effective STR of 0 are they effectively Unconscious (one of the effects of having STR 0)? Do unconscious remain standing or do they fall prone...

I'll reverse the question on you. Can an unconscious character still take mental only actions?

[Hugo Rune]

bbangerter wrote:

Hugo Rune wrote:

@Diego Rossi: Interesting take on effective v actual. If the character has an effective STR of 0 are they effectively Unconscious (one of the effects of having STR 0)? Do unconscious remain standing or do they fall prone...

I'll reverse the question on you. Can an unconscious character still take mental only actions?

No, they can't. But as Diego correctly pointed out, a spell reducing the effective score to 0 does not cause unconsciousness. I was wrong on that aspect. I still maintain however, that paralysis which creates an effective STR of 0 must be the kind that causes a creature to fall as it cannot support it's own weight as opposed to to the locked rigid type [which would presumably require an opposed STR check to try and move].

[Java Man]

A statue has an "effective strength and dexterity" of zero, I would think, typically they are able to stay upright. So maybe a person doing a really good impression of a statue can as well.

[Pizza Lord]

Java Man wrote:

A statue has an "effective strength and dexterity" of zero, I would think, typically they are able to stay upright. So maybe a person doing a really good impression of a statue can as well.

Unfortunately, I think they technically have no Str or Dex score (—), which is not the same as having a score of 0.

While under Attacking Inanimate Objects, in the Armor Class section, it is pointed out that an inanimate object has a Dexterity (specifically) of 0 (–5 to AC), I think this is clearly meant to be read as 'in regards to determining Armor Class' and not to imply that a table or statue has an actual ability score and thus might be subject to spells or effects that could otherwise lower, penalize, or even increase it (like cat's grace or some other effect that could somehow effect an object if it could).

I think in this case, paralysis means a loss of muscle control, not specifically 'noodly weak muscles'. You can have a paralyzed body part and that doesn't necessarily mean it goes limp. You can have a paralyzed or locked jaw and that doesn't mean it just gapes or flops open. In most cases your muscles are still just as strong, you just can't control or get signals to them to open or close (or contract).

I don't believe the 'effective Str and Dex of 0' is meant to mean there is suddenly no muscle strength or that your muscles have turned to goo, but instead that you have no control over them (which is why autonomous ones like your diaphragm for breathing still work and probably instinctive blinking (possibly). You also probably aren't going to suddenly void your bowels or bladder unless that was going to happen without your intent anyway, but you also couldn't purposefully do it.

I think that it's meant to convey that you have no control or ability to resist using those abilities, like if someone tried to push you over or trample you, not that you suddenly count as over-encumbered and now can't be teleported away because you're over your max load.

[glass]

Statues have Dex 0, not Dex - (a dex nonability would actually give them a higher AC than they should have). They do have Str - though, which accounts for their being able to hold themselves up.

_
glass.

[Temperans]

Effective does not mean actual. This is why you can have enhancement bonus greater than 7 if you use things like Bane, even though normally the max enhancement bonus is 5.

If we look at the helpless condition that makes it so you are "treated" as having dex 0 for the purpose of AC. But it does not say you go unconcious or drop your stuff.

Effective "dex and str" of zero thus most likely mean "you cannot move but you are not unconcious". Note that there is nothing I found that says that being over encumbered make you drop prone (maybe I missed it).

Finally, having no STR score means that thing is incorporeal if we go by the example given by the Strength table of the ability score section.

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* P.S. There is nothing that says what str score an inanimate object has. Even tiny animated objects have a Str of 6.