Two-hand weapon trait and Implement's Empowerment

[Ravingdork]

Can I benefit from the two-hand weapon trait (such as with a bastard sword) along with the thaumaturge's Implement's Empowerment since such weapons are generally classified as one-handed weapons? Why or why not?

[Ventnor]

You cannot. You must be holding one of your implements to benefit from Implement's Empowerment; if you are using both hands to wield a weapon then one of them cannot be holding an implement.

[Unicore]

Ravingdork wrote:

Can I benefit from the two-hand weapon trait (such as with a bastard sword) along with the thaumaturge's Implement's Empowerment since such weapons are generally classified as one-handed weapons? Why or why not?

No, any weapon weld in 2 hands is a two-handed weapon while you are using it. Implements empowerment is pretty specific when it says "Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don’t gain the benefit of implement’s empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

Even if your implement is a bastard sword, it ceases to be an implement if you hold it in 2 hands.

[Ascalaphus]

I believe not. In one of the Guns & Gears errata threads Michael Sayre mentioned that when you're using a weapon in two hands it counts as a 2H weapon, regardless of how many hands you minimally need to use it.

[Ravingdork]

Unicore wrote:

Even if your implement is a bastard sword, it ceases to be an implement if you hold it in 2 hands.

I can understand the interpretation of it not being generally compatible with several class features and abilities when held in two hands, but I can't find any rule that indicates that it would cease being an implement entirely just because it's held a certain way.

Surely I can wield a bastard sword in two hands and still benefit from Implement's Interruption, for example.

As it seems like it's been more or less asked and answered, I am expanding this discussion to beyond the scope of just Implement's Empowerment to include other class abilities as well.

First Implement and Esoterica:

You keep your esoterica in easy-to-access places on your person and are well practiced in brandishing your implement and esoterica together, so you can draw and use esoterica with the same hand you're using to wield an implement.

It is clearly stated that you can wield your esoterica in the same hand as your implement.

Exploit Vulnerability:

Requirement You are holding your implement.

No mention of handedness.

Implement's Interruption:

Requirement You're holding your weapon implement...

No mention of handedness. It also appears that you don't need to attack with your weapon implement, but could use a different weapon entirely, if you had one.

Implement's Empowerment:

Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.

Though RAW bastard swords are still one-handed weapons, I too have seen developer comments on the matter and RAI am inclined to agree with the majority opinion here regarding Implement's Empowerment specifically.

Second Implement:

While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action. For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction.

It would appear that you cannot quick switch implements while wielding a two-handed weapon.

None of the other class abilities seem to mention hands or handedness.

[Xenocrat]

Implements empowerment is there to let you use a one handed weapon with two handed damage. It’s not to let you go higher.

[Unicore]

The weapon implement itself states that it must be a one handed weapon. As soon as you you use two hands to hold it, it no longer meets the requirements of being an implement, and you no longer are holding an implement in either hand.

Maybe the important thing to remember with implements is that it is not actually the item itself that has the power. It requires the thermaturge to instill the item with power from within. Apparently this requires a freedom of movement not accomplishable holding anything with two hands

[Ravingdork]

Unicore wrote:

The weapon implement itself states that it must be a one handed weapon. As soon as you you use two hands to hold it, it no longer meets the requirements of being an implement, and you no longer are holding an implement in either hand.

Maybe the important thing to remember with implements is that it is not actually the item itself that has the power. It requires the thermaturge to instill the item with power from within. Apparently this requires a freedom of movement not accomplishable holding anything with two hands

The way it is worded seems to indicate that it only seems to matter when choosing the weapon.

It is always an implement thereafter. That being said, it does go on to say "which allows you to channel energies into your weapon as well as hold your other implements once you gain them" which largely makes the point moot.

So I'm of the opinion that it remains an implement, albeit one that you cannot "channel energies into" whatever that might entail.

[Guntermench]

For context the post in question.

[Ravingdork]

Guntermench wrote:

For context the post in question.

Thanks! :)

[Ascalaphus]

As you might notice, I go on for a while in that thread questioning the rules call. What Michael says and what I read in the CRB aren't precisely the same. But what he's saying would be the basis for denying a 1H weapon held in two hands.

[Guntermench]

I still don't know what your issue is about that. The CRB says you meet the requirement for things that require two hands when you wield something in two hands. Thus you wouldn't meet the requirement for things that require one hand. The hands entry is just the minimum required to wield it, and the two hand trait changes the die if you two hand.

[Sinnyil]

Ah, but what about a one-handed weapon without the two-handed trait that you use with the fighter feat dual-handed assault!

[Guntermench]

Sinnyil wrote:

Ah, but what about a one-handed weapon without the two-handed trait that you use with the fighter feat dual-handed assault!

Dual-Handed Assault wrote:

If the weapon doesn't normally have the two-hand trait, increase its weapon damage die by one step for this attack.

[The Raven Black]

I would rule that it's a 1h-weapon when you choose it as an implement.

But as soon as you wield it with two hands, it does not count as a 1-handed weapon anymore, even if it is still an implement.

[The Raven Black]

Note that weapons that are 2h or 1+ might be taken as implements other than Weapon implements.

[Guntermench]

The Raven Black wrote:

Note that weapons that are 2h or 1+ might be taken as implements other than Weapon implements.

Like what a giant two handed crown you use as an improvised weapon?

[Ravingdork]

The Raven Black wrote:

I would rule that it's a 1h-weapon when you choose it as an implement.

But as soon as you wield it with two hands, it does not count as a 1-handed weapon anymore, even if it is still an implement.

This is about where I'm landing on the rule as well.

[Gortle]

Ravingdork wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I would rule that it's a 1h-weapon when you choose it as an implement.

But as soon as you wield it with two hands, it does not count as a 1-handed weapon anymore, even if it is still an implement.

This is about where I'm landing on the rule as well.

I think this is clearly the interpretation we are supposed to have. It is how I will be playing it.

However I don't think the logic presented requires that interpretation.

There is nothing in the rules requiring your weapon to be one handed except when you choose it. Choosing it is certainly different to wielding it. You can wield it for Implement's Empowerment etc because it still counts as an other implement even if it is not a one handed implement when wielding it.

I'm coming to that conclusion on the basis that Bastard Sword would dominate Thaumatargue builds. The designer clearly is trying to say only one handed weapons.

The designers have given very general guidance on weapon handedness - saying it is continuously applied. Even though there are things like Arcane Cascade that have the opposite problem.