Hi Fellow Players,
i have a question that i cannot answer.
Its about liches and their sould cages/phylacteries
When we read the description of Sould cage (Book of the dead) or phylactery (in Bestiary) there is an information that when lich would die its sould returns to the soul cage/phylactery to recreate a new body.
Fine, but in any case except the initial death of a mortal (to become a lich) isnt the soul supposed to be trapped in the cage aka - it does not flee to the cage - its already there?
If it flees does it mean after rebuilding the body its transferred back to it (the body)? In such case whats the point in destroying the case? here a lich wouldnt need to look for its missing soul - it would be inside him/her?
sorry but am lost... maybe thats only me
How exactly the SC/P works? Please examples from books - i want to understand fully the source material,
Cheers!
I think it is deliberately left vague so that players can insert their own lore and description as long as it fits the mechanics.
So the process of trapping the player character's soul into the Soul Cage could result in the death of the original body and part of the ritual would include rebuilding the body in 1d10 days as normal for dying as a Lich, or it could just bind the soul to that Soul Cage and the original body becomes the first undead body that the Lich inhabits.
Am interested only in soul topic, body is quite self explanatory i guess.
Please look at the rejuvenation ability for liches, also the description of soul cage on page 51 of book of the dead (first 2 sentences).
In the last paragraph of its description you have the example of what happens when your soul cage is destroyed and not you.
It contradicts one other.
If your soul is trapped in a SC you do not have one in you, so it does not flee anywhere when you are destroyed (also wording destroyed, not killed = only for undead already).
so basically the main issue is after rebuilding new undead body the soul transfers back to the body? how it works vs degradation after destroying the SC?
I just do not understand it. Please proof me wrong because otherwise its just lazy writting, not worth the best creature in Fantasy RPG IMO.
btw i have checked DD3 and 3.5, also 5ED, PF1 ED - no info of having a soul in your dead body.. :(
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Hroost wrote: Please proof me wrong because otherwise its just lazy writting, Ah, OK. So that's what this conversation is heading towards.
I'll just see myself out now. I am already aware that there are problems in the consistency of the rules writing. It happens when you have a project so big that one person can't do all of it alone.
This is an inconsistency which I have wondered about since several liches started appearing in the adventure I was running. Because the apparent conflict appears not only within the newest source of undead lore (BotD) but also within the same paragraph, I cannot imagine that there has been a lore retcon.
Given what is written we can be sure that the process of becoming a lich does indeed involve releasing one's soul from their (living) body and then containing it within the cage. On the other hand, there is a clear conflict with a lich's soul being both said to flee to its soul cage on its body's destruction, but said to roam free if the cage is destroyed instead.
I have yet to make any concrete decisions regarding what I consider the canon explanation of how a lich's soul cage operates, but it seems to me the simplest answer which accepts both options to be true is that the lich places the majority of its soul trapped within the cage, but draws out a fragment for the purpose of piloting its body around.
In this case, when the lich's body is destroyed, its "soul" flees back to where the rest of the soul is being held within the cage to rebuild its body, while at the same time if the cage is every destroyed, it would have to find its own lost soul wandering the world.
An alternative but stranger explanation may be that the soul cage is merely a vessel which is intended to 'catch' the lich's soul before it passes on, not as a permanent residence. In this case, the whole soul remains with the body generally, to return to the cage if the body is destroyed. Meanwhile, there is a metaphysical link between body and cage that is needed to maintain the system. If the cage is destroyed, somehow the soul yeets out of the lich's body in response to the wards' destruction and gets lost out in the world.
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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote: An alternative but stranger explanation may be that the soul cage is merely a vessel which is intended to 'catch' the lich's soul before it passes on, not as a permanent residence. In this case, the whole soul remains with the body generally, to return to the cage if the body is destroyed. Meanwhile, there is a metaphysical link between body and cage that is needed to maintain the system. If the cage is destroyed, somehow the soul yeets out of the lich's body in response to the wards' destruction and gets lost out in the world. That's how I've always read it. A soul cage is part cage, but also part anchor, keeping a lich's soul from doing what it should be doing, leaving to join the river of souls to be judged or reincarnated or whatever is meant to happen to them. Instead it's trapped on the plane where the cage is and is forced to keep the lich's carcass up and mobile. If the body dies then the soul's probation ends and it gets sucked back to the cage until a new body can get constructed.
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
I have yet to make any concrete decisions regarding what I consider the canon explanation of how a lich's soul cage operates, but it seems to me the simplest answer which accepts both options to be true is that the lich places the majority of its soul trapped within the cage, but draws out a fragment for the purpose of piloting its body around.
In this case, when the lich's body is destroyed, its "soul" flees back to where the rest of the soul is being held within the cage to rebuild its body, while at the same time if the cage is every destroyed, it would have to find its own lost soul wandering the world.
This is the only one logical explanation i had regarding all of this. The afterthought is do all intelligent undead have some portion of soul? That might explain Pharasmas attitude (desecration of the dead body is valid but not affects the flow of souls by any means).
Last observation: this entire issue originates not in BotD but in Bestiary 1. And somehow instead of correcting it (like in case of phylactery and soul cage) they kept it anyway. More than that i have seen an interview with one of the creators (a very well known person in PF community - am super bad with names - apologioes) and he was "all about the liches". So i see the passion, i see a really good product and yet there is a mistake so simple that i just do refuse to accept this. :( i know its probably nothing but...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions on that. Appreciate it!
i have found this:
Generally speaking, non-intelligent undead such as
zombies and skeletons possess no souls. Little more than
puppets of flesh and bone, animated by negative energy in a
warped attempt at life, these automatons have no attachment
to the souls of their former owners, and are evil merely due to
the corrupting influence of the Negative Energy Plane.
Intelligent incorporeal undead such as ghosts and
spectres are souls, unwilling to discard their mortal lives due
to unfinished business, lingering concerns, or a desire for
revenge. Shackled by their own passions, negative energy
corrupts their essences, acting like a tether to prevent the
natural progression of the soul toward the Outer Sphere.
Such beings as vampires and liches further exemplify the
condition, being possessed of their original mortal souls,
and still bound to a version of their corporeal form. Twisted,
augmented, and improved by their bond to the Negative
Energy Plane’s power, their embrace of undeath is most
often a willing process, and likewise prevents their souls from
migrating to whatever paradise or hell would have awaited
them originally. - page 3 of The Great Beyond PF1 Chronicles
in such case Both vampires and liches have souls, and having a soul is a key for a consciousness. Am on board with the soul split (cage and body) now, but definately it is not clearly enough written
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James Jacobs clarified in a post on his thread that any undead has at least part of a soul animating them. Mindless undead just have a very small part.
This is why Pharasma vehemently opposes the creation of any undead, even mindless ones.
Because the soul energy diverted to create and sustain undead is that much not available to keep the cycle of life and death turning as it should.
Since the cycle is what keeps everything existing and Pharasma is its keeper, you can see why she has a zero undead policy.
The Raven Black wrote: James Jacobs clarified in a post on his thread that any undead has at least part of a soul animating them. Mindless undead just have a very small part.
This is why Pharasma vehemently opposes the creation of any undead, even mindless ones.
Because the soul energy diverted to create and sustain undead is that much not available to keep the cycle of life and death turning as it should.
Since the cycle is what keeps everything existing and Pharasma is its keeper, you can see why she has a zero undead policy.
thank you for bringing it up, now i think its clear :)
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