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I noticed the Gray Maiden Plate Armor in Shadows at Sundown. It's Full Plate with only 16 Str requirement, 3 Bulk, and costs 35 gp. So -2 Str req and -1 Bulk from Full Plate and it only costs 5 gp more. It's not listed as Uncommon or Rare and has no Access requirement. This seems out of bounds power-wise to me and at a minimum it should have either the Uncommon/Rare tag or need to be a Gray Maiden to Access. It's always possible I'm missing something in my reading. Did anyone else notice this and what do you think?
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In absolute terms it's not overpowered, since nothing about the stats are going to wreck the game. Low strength heavy armor users are extremely well served by it, but to an extent they need the help, and high strength heavy armor users are barely going to notice the difference.
In comparative terms, yeah it's significantly better than base full plate, and leads me to believe you're right that it should have an access requirement. Otherwise I would always get this, since 5 gold for +1 bulk is not bad for high strength characters and the -2 str requirement opens up 5 levels of reduced penalties for a bunch of characters.
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Probably why it's PFS Restricted.
That just leaves it to homegame GMs to allow.
The nice thing about the Uncommon/Rare tag is that it would serve the same purpose as PFS Restricted for home games. You don't have to look much further than Hellknight Plate to see a similar concept with a better implementation. It has both the Uncommon Trait and an Access requirement. Not only that I seem to remember the additional benefits of the Armor only apply if you're a Hellknight, but I don't have the chance to check right now so I might be misremembering.
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I noticed the Gray Maiden Plate Armor in Shadows at Sundown. It's Full Plate with only 16 Str requirement, 3 Bulk, and costs 35 gp. So -2 Str req and -1 Bulk from Full Plate and it only costs 5 gp more. It's not listed as Uncommon or Rare and has no Access requirement. This seems out of bounds power-wise to me and at a minimum it should have either the Uncommon/Rare tag or need to be a Gray Maiden to Access. It's always possible I'm missing something in my reading. Did anyone else notice this and what do you think?
Seems absurd considering that another similar armor, Hellknight Plate, is just Uncommon Full Plate with a cooler name behind it, and some ancillary benefits if you took some specific Hellknight dedications. But nothing as finite and absolutely a power creep as this.
That being said, it seems likely that this should be a Rare tag with an Access via the Gray Maidens, or a Dedication requirement.
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the uncommon tag is not supposed to be a power gate in the first place, so that's not really a solution.
Just seems like weird (albeit fairly minor) power creep, or another example of an adventure item not getting properly edited
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I believe JJ said they scaled back the amount of Grey Maiden stuff that was going to be in this adventure after not finding a woman author for it in time. We’ll see that Archetype whenever they get their due - a Saga Lands book, or one on famous groups, maybe.
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Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s
As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.
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Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s
As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.
What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?
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What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s
As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.
Fists of the Ruby Phoenix has an archetype that lets casters get master unarmed proficiency.
What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s
As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.
6th pillar mastery, pin to the spot, bone croupier (via animate dead), etc, etc. It's a pretty regularly occurring thing. Most, if not all, are or were tagged for errata or already fixed.
There was also the ruby phoenix archetype that gave spellcasters master in unarmed. A monk feat in AoA that's just a straight upgrade over an almost identical (but admittedly terrible) feat in the CRB.
Granted by comparison -1 bulk, -2 strength full plate is pretty inconsequential, but it's still left some people I've spoken to with a sour impression of AP-based material and more wary of rarity tags.
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What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s
As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.
The Exquisite Sword Cane is an example from PF2 along with the Alchemical Crossbow, Different World Feat, and Spirt Speaker Feat being a few more examples of options that were printed in adventures that are MARKEDLY more powerful than nearly all other options of the same level they're available at in the AP. If we're talking about PF1 the examples are too numerous to count, from Traits, Equipment, Feats, and the oft lauded Spell Blood Money.
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Starfinder still does this, too, there are some really dumb feats and spells (lol Mind of Three) in the APs.
Starfinder still does this, too, there are some really dumb feats and spells (lol Mind of Three) in the APs.
While it is nice to have official "sanction" to say no to players, I say no to players all the time without a tag. Goblin Junk Armor in Starfinder comes to mind. The Salvage Chassis is SFS legal but unless you're a goblin or come from Akiton the answer's still no. Same thing with Aeon torpedoes or Casters.
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The Exquisite Sword Cane is an example from PF2 along with the Alchemical Crossbow, Different World Feat, and Spirt Speaker Feat being a few more examples of options that were printed in adventures that are MARKEDLY more powerful than nearly all other options of the same level they're available at in the AP.
I found myself agreeing with Themetricsystem far too much lately so its time to draw a line in the sand. It has too stop!
There are not nearly as many problems with extra content from adventure modules and items with controlled rarity as people make out. You are way better off just playing with everything and dealing with the few exceptions.
Yes there maybe some divination or teleport abilities that are going to screw your plot over, so as a GM if you don't want these abilities then cool say so and rule them out. Maybe there is a type of magic, or religion, or an ancestry, or even a technology that you don't want in the game for thematic reasons, or because you have a specific plot role reserved for them. If this is your reason then as a GM, talk to your players and just do it.
Dealing with the specifics raised;
Exquisite Sword Cane has parry in a d6 weapon which is unique, but you have to realise the competition for parry is a shield, and there are d8 weapons you can wield in one hand with a shield. So its useful but not a problem.
Alchemical Crossbow has a very low range of 30ft. The 1d6 variable damage type that takes an extra action is not a balance problem at all. It still gets crushed by bows, I'd still want other crosswbows. But what it does do is open up another playstyle. Surely thats actually what we want with expansions to the game.
Spirit Speaker is so laughably weak and has so many limitations I can't see why you raised it as an issue at all. Is it somehow strictly better than other superweak powers no one takes. I'm just not getting it.
By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.
6th pillar mastery, pin to the spot, bone croupier (via animate dead), etc, etc. It's a pretty regularly occurring thing. Most, if not all, are or were tagged for errata or already fixed.What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s
As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.
My list is not very large.
I banHeaven's Thunder
Sixth Pillar Mastery
Pin to the Spot
I modify Inner Radiance Torrent to just scale at half the rate it says
My rule interpretation of Battle forms also has Fighter based Wildshapers as too strong so I encourage players not to go this way. I guess thats a ban. But lots of people disagree with me on that, so its hard to say this combination is a general problem.
There are plenty of interpretations, here is my list, that I have to make along the way. But everyone will have to make decisions on those when they become issues.
No I don't see Bone Croupier as a problem. What you have missed is Animate Dead is limited to Common creatures, so its not even possible as Bone Croupier is Uncommon. But even if it was allowed, its a level 5 creature summoned by a spell you get at level 9. Yes its a summon whose abilities are not completely irrelevant by the time you can get it - that doesn't make it a problem.
What else do you have on your list?
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My conspiracy theory is that having the Gray Maiden Plate be very good armor, and the Gray Maiden's to be a woman-only organization that is also trans friendly is a subtle attempt to crack some eggs.
By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.
I think it's Different Worlds vs Vigilante Dedication.
While the reduced bulk is an unfortunate balance point, I wouldn't mind the armor existing otherwise so battle oracles don't have such an awkward first 4 levels.
I suppose you could remove the bulwark trait and it would then fill that same niche without being an upgrade to the best option.
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What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s
As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.
Shoony most OP Ancestry.
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By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.I think it's Different Worlds vs Vigilante Dedication.
Thanks.
But again its a problem how? Something is not broken because it is better than another soft option. These sort of roleplaying out of combat abilities aren't really mechanically balanced in the same way and don't need to be.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As a note, Gortle, they're referring to the version of the bone croupier from AP 151, which lacked the Uncommon tag, and was overall not as well balanced as the new version in Book of the Dead, hence the comment about things being patched via errata.
Though I guess this is more a reprinting than an errata?
Thanks. I didn't realise there were two. When you search on Nethys you can only see one page, despite there being two different pages.
2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=4982e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1843
I guess this is something that already has been errated then. Nethys does link both to back to the adventure module. Have they introduced common creatures in an adventure before? I though they were all supposed to be at least uncommon, to stop anything creeping into the power equation of the summon spells and similar abilities.
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I believe JJ said they scaled back the amount of Grey Maiden stuff that was going to be in this adventure after not finding a woman author for it in time.
For real? What a waste!
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By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.I think it's Different Worlds vs Vigilante Dedication.
Precisely my meaning, indeed.
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I believe JJ said they scaled back the amount of Grey Maiden stuff that was going to be in this adventure after not finding a woman author for it in time.For real? What a waste!
Yeah was Kalindlara busy with Knights of Lastwall? I'm sure she would've done it.