Gray Maiden Plate too good to be true?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I noticed the Gray Maiden Plate Armor in Shadows at Sundown. It's Full Plate with only 16 Str requirement, 3 Bulk, and costs 35 gp. So -2 Str req and -1 Bulk from Full Plate and it only costs 5 gp more. It's not listed as Uncommon or Rare and has no Access requirement. This seems out of bounds power-wise to me and at a minimum it should have either the Uncommon/Rare tag or need to be a Gray Maiden to Access. It's always possible I'm missing something in my reading. Did anyone else notice this and what do you think?

Gray Maiden Plate

Sczarni

Probably why it's PFS Restricted.

That just leaves it to homegame GMs to allow.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In absolute terms it's not overpowered, since nothing about the stats are going to wreck the game. Low strength heavy armor users are extremely well served by it, but to an extent they need the help, and high strength heavy armor users are barely going to notice the difference.

In comparative terms, yeah it's significantly better than base full plate, and leads me to believe you're right that it should have an access requirement. Otherwise I would always get this, since 5 gold for +1 bulk is not bad for high strength characters and the -2 str requirement opens up 5 levels of reduced penalties for a bunch of characters.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:

Probably why it's PFS Restricted.

That just leaves it to homegame GMs to allow.

The nice thing about the Uncommon/Rare tag is that it would serve the same purpose as PFS Restricted for home games. You don't have to look much further than Hellknight Plate to see a similar concept with a better implementation. It has both the Uncommon Trait and an Access requirement. Not only that I seem to remember the additional benefits of the Armor only apply if you're a Hellknight, but I don't have the chance to check right now so I might be misremembering.

Sczarni

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That's what leads me to think this is a typo. Normally, PFS doesn't have to list Uncommon/Rare options as Restricted, since the traits do that by default.

But since this is missing those traits, they had to Restrict it.


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nephandys wrote:

I noticed the Gray Maiden Plate Armor in Shadows at Sundown. It's Full Plate with only 16 Str requirement, 3 Bulk, and costs 35 gp. So -2 Str req and -1 Bulk from Full Plate and it only costs 5 gp more. It's not listed as Uncommon or Rare and has no Access requirement. This seems out of bounds power-wise to me and at a minimum it should have either the Uncommon/Rare tag or need to be a Gray Maiden to Access. It's always possible I'm missing something in my reading. Did anyone else notice this and what do you think?

Gray Maiden Plate

Seems absurd considering that another similar armor, Hellknight Plate, is just Uncommon Full Plate with a cooler name behind it, and some ancillary benefits if you took some specific Hellknight dedications. But nothing as finite and absolutely a power creep as this.

That being said, it seems likely that this should be a Rare tag with an Access via the Gray Maidens, or a Dedication requirement.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

the uncommon tag is not supposed to be a power gate in the first place, so that's not really a solution.

Just seems like weird (albeit fairly minor) power creep, or another example of an adventure item not getting properly edited


nephandys wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Probably why it's PFS Restricted.

That just leaves it to homegame GMs to allow.

The nice thing about the Uncommon/Rare tag is that it would serve the same purpose as PFS Restricted for home games. You don't have to look much further than Hellknight Plate to see a similar concept with a better implementation. It has both the Uncommon Trait and an Access requirement. Not only that I seem to remember the additional benefits of the Armor only apply if you're a Hellknight, but I don't have the chance to check right now so I might be misremembering.

You are correct. If you take the Hellknight Dedication feat, which requires Hellknight Armiger Dedication, which in turn requires the ability to wear heavy armor, you get another point of resistance for wearing Hellknight Plate from your armor specialization, and a +1 circumstance bonus on intimidation checks.

That's significantly more hoops to jump through for a buff to plate armor than buying a set of armor that is almost as good as mithril armor at a fraction of the price. Granted you aren't getting the best part of mithril, the speed increase, but it's still not at all balanced against comparable armor options at the same level.

Also, small tangent but is anyone else bummed we didn't get a Gray Maiden-style archetype? I'm surprised it hasn't shown up yet, considering it was one of the archetypes featured in the playtest.


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I believe JJ said they scaled back the amount of Grey Maiden stuff that was going to be in this adventure after not finding a woman author for it in time. We’ll see that Archetype whenever they get their due - a Saga Lands book, or one on famous groups, maybe.

Liberty's Edge

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Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s

As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.


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James Jacobs' comment on this.


Themetricsystem wrote:

Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s

As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.

What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?


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keftiu wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s

As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.

What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?

Fists of the Ruby Phoenix has an archetype that lets casters get master unarmed proficiency.


keftiu wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s

As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.

What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?

6th pillar mastery, pin to the spot, bone croupier (via animate dead), etc, etc. It's a pretty regularly occurring thing. Most, if not all, are or were tagged for errata or already fixed.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There was also the ruby phoenix archetype that gave spellcasters master in unarmed. A monk feat in AoA that's just a straight upgrade over an almost identical (but admittedly terrible) feat in the CRB.

Granted by comparison -1 bulk, -2 strength full plate is pretty inconsequential, but it's still left some people I've spoken to with a sour impression of AP-based material and more wary of rarity tags.

Liberty's Edge

keftiu wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s

As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.

What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?

The Exquisite Sword Cane is an example from PF2 along with the Alchemical Crossbow, Different World Feat, and Spirt Speaker Feat being a few more examples of options that were printed in adventures that are MARKEDLY more powerful than nearly all other options of the same level they're available at in the AP. If we're talking about PF1 the examples are too numerous to count, from Traits, Equipment, Feats, and the oft lauded Spell Blood Money.


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Starfinder still does this, too, there are some really dumb feats and spells (lol Mind of Three) in the APs.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Starfinder still does this, too, there are some really dumb feats and spells (lol Mind of Three) in the APs.

While it is nice to have official "sanction" to say no to players, I say no to players all the time without a tag. Goblin Junk Armor in Starfinder comes to mind. The Salvage Chassis is SFS legal but unless you're a goblin or come from Akiton the answer's still no. Same thing with Aeon torpedoes or Casters.


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Xenocrat wrote:
James Jacobs' comment on this.

JJ quoted below for those as don't want to hop to the other thread.

James Jacobs wrote:

Looks like the way we format non-magical armors is the culprit—indication that Gray Maiden Plate is not common got stripped from this at some point.

Gray Maiden plate is, in any case, should be Rare, and should come with story repercussions since wearing the armor would impact others' first impressions of you, particularly in Korvosa or nearby areas.

Alternately, make it a level 3 item with a cost of 50 gp.

Sorry about the confusion.

At this point, the only way to "gain access" to a suit of the armor is to loot it from a Gray Maiden you fight in the adventure or to convince them to give you a suit as a gift. Access is at this point 100% GM controlled.

We may do more with the Gray Maidens in a future product, but this adventure was not the right place to have them play much more than a cameo role mostly kept to the NPC side of things.

Also, yeah, little funky things slip through the cracks on AP products. There are also some non-powerful, but odd errors that show up, like a monster in Night of the Gray Death having both acid resistance and acid immunity.


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Themetricsystem wrote:


The Exquisite Sword Cane is an example from PF2 along with the Alchemical Crossbow, Different World Feat, and Spirt Speaker Feat being a few more examples of options that were printed in adventures that are MARKEDLY more powerful than nearly all other options of the same level they're available at in the AP.

I found myself agreeing with Themetricsystem far too much lately so its time to draw a line in the sand. It has too stop!

There are not nearly as many problems with extra content from adventure modules and items with controlled rarity as people make out. You are way better off just playing with everything and dealing with the few exceptions.

Yes there maybe some divination or teleport abilities that are going to screw your plot over, so as a GM if you don't want these abilities then cool say so and rule them out. Maybe there is a type of magic, or religion, or an ancestry, or even a technology that you don't want in the game for thematic reasons, or because you have a specific plot role reserved for them. If this is your reason then as a GM, talk to your players and just do it.

Dealing with the specifics raised;
Exquisite Sword Cane has parry in a d6 weapon which is unique, but you have to realise the competition for parry is a shield, and there are d8 weapons you can wield in one hand with a shield. So its useful but not a problem.

Alchemical Crossbow has a very low range of 30ft. The 1d6 variable damage type that takes an extra action is not a balance problem at all. It still gets crushed by bows, I'd still want other crosswbows. But what it does do is open up another playstyle. Surely thats actually what we want with expansions to the game.

Spirit Speaker is so laughably weak and has so many limitations I can't see why you raised it as an issue at all. Is it somehow strictly better than other superweak powers no one takes. I'm just not getting it.

By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.


gesalt wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s

As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.

What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?
6th pillar mastery, pin to the spot, bone croupier (via animate dead), etc, etc. It's a pretty regularly occurring thing. Most, if not all, are or were tagged for errata or already fixed.

My list is not very large.

I ban
Heaven's Thunder
Sixth Pillar Mastery
Pin to the Spot

I modify Inner Radiance Torrent to just scale at half the rate it says

My rule interpretation of Battle forms also has Fighter based Wildshapers as too strong so I encourage players not to go this way. I guess thats a ban. But lots of people disagree with me on that, so its hard to say this combination is a general problem.

There are plenty of interpretations, here is my list, that I have to make along the way. But everyone will have to make decisions on those when they become issues.

No I don't see Bone Croupier as a problem. What you have missed is Animate Dead is limited to Common creatures, so its not even possible as Bone Croupier is Uncommon. But even if it was allowed, its a level 5 creature summoned by a spell you get at level 9. Yes its a summon whose abilities are not completely irrelevant by the time you can get it - that doesn't make it a problem.

What else do you have on your list?


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My conspiracy theory is that having the Gray Maiden Plate be very good armor, and the Gray Maiden's to be a woman-only organization that is also trans friendly is a subtle attempt to crack some eggs.


Gortle wrote:
By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.

I think it's Different Worlds vs Vigilante Dedication.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

While the reduced bulk is an unfortunate balance point, I wouldn't mind the armor existing otherwise so battle oracles don't have such an awkward first 4 levels.

I suppose you could remove the bulwark trait and it would then fill that same niche without being an upgrade to the best option.

Silver Crusade

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keftiu wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Hey look, another option printed in an adventure module that outclasses rulebook materials. Color me shocked! /s

As great as the average adventure book is that Paizo makes, they sure could use an extra round of review and edits to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen... at this point, it is more like a norm than an exception.

What else has happened like this, other than one feat in the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype?

Shoony most OP Ancestry.


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graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.
I think it's Different Worlds vs Vigilante Dedication.

Thanks.

But again its a problem how? Something is not broken because it is better than another soft option. These sort of roleplaying out of combat abilities aren't really mechanically balanced in the same way and don't need to be.


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As a note, Gortle, they're referring to the version of the bone croupier from AP 151, which lacked the Uncommon tag, and was overall not as well balanced as the new version in Book of the Dead, hence the comment about things being patched via errata.

Though I guess this is more a reprinting than an errata?


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Perpdepog wrote:

As a note, Gortle, they're referring to the version of the bone croupier from AP 151, which lacked the Uncommon tag, and was overall not as well balanced as the new version in Book of the Dead, hence the comment about things being patched via errata.

Though I guess this is more a reprinting than an errata?

Thanks. I didn't realise there were two. When you search on Nethys you can only see one page, despite there being two different pages.

2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=498
2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1843

I guess this is something that already has been errated then. Nethys does link both to back to the adventure module. Have they introduced common creatures in an adventure before? I though they were all supposed to be at least uncommon, to stop anything creeping into the power equation of the summon spells and similar abilities.


I don't see a problem with Gray Maiden plate being stronger than regular full plate. PF2 has a lack of actual variation in armor and this adds a lot of it. Not to mention that the Gray Maidens are one of if not the most cool, awesome, messed up, and outright disturbing group Paizo ever created.

If you own a set of Gray Maiden plate odds are: You are a Gray Maiden in which case you are disfigured, riddled with psychological trauma, and physical scars from abuse; It used to belong to a Gray Maiden who is most likely now dead; Or, it was stolen from a Gray Maiden who is probably having a really bad time. Either way that armor has all sorts of bad juju.


Gortle wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:

As a note, Gortle, they're referring to the version of the bone croupier from AP 151, which lacked the Uncommon tag, and was overall not as well balanced as the new version in Book of the Dead, hence the comment about things being patched via errata.

Though I guess this is more a reprinting than an errata?

Thanks. I didn't realise there were two. When you search on Nethys you can only see one page, despite there being two different pages.

2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=498
2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1843

I guess this is something that already has been errated then. Nethys does link both to back to the adventure module. Have they introduced common creatures in an adventure before? I though they were all supposed to be at least uncommon, to stop anything creeping into the power equation of the summon spells and similar abilities.

I believe it's common practice now to make monsters Uncommon or Rare, but bone croupier fell through the cracks because it was in one of the first APs that got printed. Heck, I think it was one of the main reasons that Uncommon and Rare tags started being applied to AP monsters more liberally.

And yeah, it's a bit bothersome. If I want to look at an old version of a monster for the sake of comparison I have to do a Google search and hope both versions show up in the list of results.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
keftiu wrote:
I believe JJ said they scaled back the amount of Grey Maiden stuff that was going to be in this adventure after not finding a woman author for it in time.

For real? What a waste!

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
By Different World Feat if you meant All the Time in the World. Then sure its super powerful. But its level 20, and it doesn't strike me as that much better than Hypercognition which you can get at level 9. So I'm not getting your point.
I think it's Different Worlds vs Vigilante Dedication.

Precisely my meaning, indeed.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I believe JJ said they scaled back the amount of Grey Maiden stuff that was going to be in this adventure after not finding a woman author for it in time.
For real? What a waste!

Yeah was Kalindlara busy with Knights of Lastwall? I'm sure she would've done it.

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