A Redcap's cap

[rokeca]

What would be the action options for removing a Redcap's cap?

Disarm?

Grapple - except the cap is grabbed instead of the Redcap?

Steal? This is supposed to automatically fail if in combat, but it wouldn't really matter if the Redcap noticed the attempt. Or could Steal be attempted if the Redcap was grappled?

Anything I've missed?

Thanks!

[Kasoh]

Pathfinder 2e CRB wrote:

Other Actions: Sometimes you need to attempt something not already covered by defined actions in the game. When this happens, the rules tell you how many actions you need to spend, as well as any traits your action might have. For example, a spell that lets you switch targets might say you can do so “by spending a single action, which has the concentrate trait.” Game masters can also use this approach when a character tries to do something that isn't covered in the rules.

A modification of disarm or steal are good places to start for such an action, I'd say.

[rokeca]

Kasoh wrote:

A modification of disarm or steal are good places to start for such an action, I'd say.

Appreciate your perspective and pointing me to a rules reference I couldn't find. Much appreciated!

[_benno]

Athletics or acrobatics against their reflex DC I'd suggest.

[Themetricsystem]

If this was intended to be more along the lines of "what would you do" thread instead of a rules discussion it's sorted into the wrong sub-forum because the rules are absolutely clear this is not allowed, full-stop.

NOW: Assuming this is an Advice thread - I would only ever allow this kind of thing inside of combat if the player was really adamant in the moment and was willing to spend Hero Points in order to even have the opportunity to succeed. Otherwise, this is just flat out and unambitiously against the Rules.

I honestly don't think that any of these suggestions are actually appropriate, stealing in combat is supposed to be 100% impossible so as to prevent trivializing encounters and this is honestly just an especially egregious example of just how bad it could be abused if allowed given that it absolutely tanks the Redcaps ability to functionally contribute to combat.

Allowing this at the normal Ref DC is not, IMO, a great idea, first, this is by RAW mechanically impossible to do. Second, if they succeed the PC will have spent 1 action on a moderate-challenging task (they'd need an average of a 12 on the die roll or a 9 if playing a Rogue) in order to basically get rid of the ONE thing that makes them even remotely a level 5 creature, their fast healing, plus you'd be adding a HUGE penalty to their Damage. At hale status with their Cap they already do about half the damage on their attacks that any other level 5 creature does, removing the only Ability that enables them to even pretend to be a level 5 challenge PLUS cutting their expected damage by nearly 1/3... it's just too much without some truly spectacular die roll and PC specialization in the Thievery Skill.

[Castilliano]

Yeah, it's a rules question so goes here, even if the rules have no specific way to do it so one must reference the loosest rules. Yes, this overlaps with advice, but it's still asking about a ruling and what rules might apply.

That said, I agree with Themetricsystem that it's a huge debuff, bigger than a full Disarm and that requires a Critical Success in order to work. In that vein I'd say it'd be harder to remove than some ol' cap for mechanical reasons and in lore because we're talking about a Fey w/ an obvious supernatural link to the cap.

The PCs IMO would need to put in a lot of effort, like Restraining first and then rolling the equivalent of a Disarm (w/o technically being one). As in, PCs put in effort in the same ballpark as defeating the Redcap, albeit less since it'll still be kicking and screaming. And slashing.

One rule of thumb I present to players which so far has persuaded/dissuaded them each time it's arisen is to pose the question of whether future enemies will be able to use similar tactics against them. In this case maybe take their magic helmet or unsnap their magic cloak.

[StarlingSweeter]

Themetricsystem wrote:

I honestly don't think that any of these suggestions are actually appropriate, stealing in combat is supposed to be 100% impossible so as to prevent trivializing encounters and this is honestly just an especially egregious example of just how bad it could be abused if allowed given that it absolutely tanks the Redcaps ability to functionally contribute to combat.

Isn't this possible to accomplish with the pickpocket skill feat? A creature with master proficiency can steal something off a creature even in combat even if it closely guarded. The action cost is doubled and you take a -5 penalty but saying its Impossible seems a bit of a stretch.

While that is a class agnostic suggestion. The two class feats Stella's Stab and Snag (6) and Mug (4) both let you steal in combat.

If someone wanted to pull this maneuver off impromptu I would agree that it would be much harder to neigh impossible to pull off but if OP wanted some suggestions to base a fast and loose ruling on it then that would be the best place to start.

[_benno]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Allowing this at the normal Ref DC is not, IMO, a great idea, first, this is by RAW mechanically impossible to do.

You are perfectly right. I did not realize that a redcap is a creature. I thought it some kind of mundane clothing I did not know xD

[rokeca]

Lots of good discussion here that helped me to look at this from different angles – thank you.

I think that removing the redcap’s cap is something that should be possible. Before pausing our last game mid-combat, my players spent two actions making Recall Knowledge checks to learn about the cap being a vulnerability. So not giving them the opportunity to creatively apply what they’ve learned without a reasonable chance of success seems like punishing them for smart play. And the way the cap is described in the monster description is almost an invitation to get creative in trying to remove it.

I also agree that it equates to a major debuff… and what I decide sets a precedent should they meet redcaps in the future (or try similar tactics in a different situation). I do like Castilliano’s lore-based rationale around a supernatural link with the cap to make it harder than you would expect to remove a hat.

My current inclination is to let Disarm work (since generally requires a critical success to succeed). In addition, I think I’ll allow them to attempt other creative skill checks vs the redcap’s Reflex DC if they can first get the creature Grappled. Since Reflex DC is 25, that’s definitely not a gimme and likely requires some teamwork for my level 4 players to achieve.

[HumbleGamer]

Redcaps have also a very low will, so even using sleep and then steal their caps could do the trick ( without dealing with improvised stuff ).

It's kinda strange paizo mentioend the cap but not a way to deal with it in the creature sheet though ( for example, like they did with golems ).