Hello!
I'm starting 8 lvl witch+1lvl barbarian, and I'm confused when reading familiar section. My familiar is tiny Scorpion, Greensting.
I have a few question:
1) Does a familiar gain skill point when master (witch) gain lvl up? Or familiar is always stand at 1 lvl, and gain skill point at this lvl depending on type of creature?
Intelligence Vermin have skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die.
Familiars Hit Dice = master HD (in class that gain familiar ability).
So... It have 8 skill points or 1 or doesn't have?
2) Does a familiar gain feat at 1 lvl?
3) Does a familiar gain access to masters knowledge skill (without class skill bonuse), taking masters ranks?
And now I need help to calculate familiar skills.
My witch have different skills, but we do not need all.
Acrobatic: 3 points
Climb: 1 point
Swim: 1 point
Fly: 5 points
Perception: 9 points
Stealth: 0 points
The Greensting Scorpion have next racial, size modificator and stats:
Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 2
+4 climb
+4 perception
+4 stealth
+8 size mod to stealth
+3 class skill bonus to Acrobatic, Climb, Swim, Fly, Perception and Stealth.
+3 Dexterity
Does my calculating Scorpion skills correct?
Acrobatic: +3 DEX, +3 class, +3 master (witch)= +9
Climb: +3 DEX, +4 racial, +3 class, +1 master = +11
Swim: +3 DEX, +3 class, +1 master = +7
Fly: +3 DEX, +3 class, +5 master = +11 (I know - he doesn't have a wings=))
Perception: +4 racial, +3 class, +9 master = +16
Stealth: +3 DEX, +3 class, +4 racial, +8 size, +1 scorpion skill = +19
beside the starting feat\s and skills of the normal animal\vermin (and any extra skills he might get from rising his int or for being a familiar like some archtypes give) a familiar doesn't gain new skills or feats from the master leveling up. (normal familiar, there are some exceptions but they make it clear if they do).
a familiar does has an option to use any ranks in a skill the master has (ranks only) and then apply his own modifiers. if the ranks are higher then his own.
he still only treat skills as class skills by they were his own class skill (animal\vermin class skills) - so ranks a master have in a skill that is class skill for the master but not the familiar won't give it +3 for ranks in a class skill.
(say a wizard have ranks in knowledge arcane, the familiar would use his total ranks, but since it is not a class skill for him he won't gain +3 like his master when calculating the total bonus for the skill. and use his own int modifier)
beside the starting feat\s and skills of the normal animal\vermin (and any extra skills he might get from rising his int or for being a familiar like some archtypes give) a familiar doesn't gain new skills or feats from the master leveling up. (normal familiar, there are some exceptions but they make it clear if they do).
a familiar does has an option to use any ranks in a skill the master has (ranks only) and then apply his own modifiers. if the ranks are higher then his own.
he still only treat skills as class skills by they were his own class skill (animal\vermin class skills) - so ranks a master have in a skill that is class skill for the master but not the familiar won't give it +3 for ranks in a class skill.
(say a wizard have ranks in knowledge arcane, the familiar would use his total ranks, but since it is not a class skill for him he won't gain +3 like his master when calculating the total bonus for the skill. and use his own int modifier)
About feat, I mean if we open his base stats in bestiary, he has a weapon finesse feat. But in the familiar section we can see next: "Use the familiar‘s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar‘s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.". So this feat do not function, and my question is: can the player take another feat, or familiar doesn't have any feats including feat from bestiary?
Sorry, my English is bad and I may not be asking the right questions. Sometimes with Google... =(About familiars own skills - I know that he use his own skill ranks or masters (whichever is better). But what does you mean: "his own skill ranks"? From where he it takes? If we open scorpion stats, we can see: Skills Climb +7 (+3DEX+4 racial), Perception +4 (+4 racial), Stealth +15 (+8 size bonuse +4 racial and +3 DEX). I cann't see any own skill ranks at this skills... How many skill ranks does it have (familiar)?
About familiars knowledge skills - thanks. In my case he know arcane, planes, history and nature: 9 masters ranks in this skills and familiar own INT (-1) = +8 skill check. Right?
i'll start off with explaining how to calculate the skill ranks it have by itself (as opposed the ones he get from his master) from the information given.
since all this will make a wall of text i will separate the answers into sections, calculating skills will be in the following section, the answers for the other questions will be on their own sections to keep things clear.
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to find out the skill ranks of the animal we need to use some reverse engineering.
let's take the green sting for example.
stats: Tiny vermin, hp 4 (1d8)
- it has 1 hd, aka animal level, so if it had an int it would get 1 level worth of skill ranks, BUT-
Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
- it has no int. so it can have no skills (before turning into a familiar)
skills :
Skills Climb +7, Perception +4, Stealth +15; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Perception, +4 Stealth.
now tiny animals can use dex instead of str for skills
so climb 7 is dex +3 and +4 racial bonus and 0 skill ranks.
perception is +4 from 0 skill rank, +0 wis and +4 race bonus.
stealth is 15 from +8 for size, 0 ranks, +3 dex and +4 racial bonus = 8+3+4 = 15,
so far we can see that as a being with no int score it get no skill ranks at all, BUT when it turn into a familiar it get an int score.
"A greensting scorpion familiar loses the mindless trait and has an Intelligence score appropriate for its master’s level."
in this case depend on the master's level his int would change based on the familiar table in here. in your case 8 levels of witch
-the level of barbarian while increasing it's hp won't add to the overall 'master level' to form the outcome in the familiar progression table.
in the table we can see that when the master class level =7th–8th it get:
Natural Armor Adj. = +4 (it's nat ac is 4 higher then that put in the normal animal page), int = 9 . etc
now as an animal it get :
'Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for animals: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim.'
so as 9 int is -1. it get 1 skill per hd (2-1=1). as it only got 1 hd it get 1 skill rank to put for itself. if it is set in a skill the master doesn't have ,say the master doesn't have climb and it put it there then the scorpion would now have
climb : +4 racial, +1 skill rank, +3 fav class skill, +3 dex = +11 climb (4 higher then a normal scorpion). if the master had ranks in climb (up to 9 at 9th level) the scorpion could use them instead of his 1 rank, the rest would be the same.
when the witch level increase to 9th. the int of the familiar would one again change from 9 to 10 and it would gain another skill rank (2-0=2) to pick from (anything other then the skill it already put a rank in since as a 1 hd creature it can't have more then 1 rank in a skill).
this again would increase whenever the familiar int would rise due to the master higher level and get into a new modifer bonus (+1 int for 12 int at master level 13, +2 int for 14 int at master level 17 etc).
so to sum all this:
at witch level 8 the familiar has 1 skill rank to put into any skill it likes (skills that seem plausible for it, fly for example, is going to be a problem. unless the witch cast fly on it regularly).
it will get 1 more skill rank to put into a different skill when the witch hit levels 9,13 and 17. all the skill ranks must be placed at different skills as it only got 1 level and can't have more then 1 rank in a skill. (these extra skill ranks are from getting higher int, not from it leveling up)
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so far was how to calculate the familiar skill ranks, now for the rest of the questions.
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"About feat, I mean if we open his base stats in bestiary, he has a weapon finesse feat. But in the familiar section we can see next: "Use the familiar‘s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar‘s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.". So this feat do not function"
- it's just an explanation about how the weapon finesse work. weapon finesse work with nat attacks, and since the familiar get it he can use ether dex or str to attack, it's not gone or something.
i believe the reason why they took the effort to explain it was in case later on some familiar option is presented and for some reason the base creature doesn't get weapon finesse. so they made a rule to make sure that even if that happen it would get the same ability.
Anyway, the fact that a feat seem to be taken off is no reason to get a new one, you do not gain stuff without being told to do so. If it is taken out , you just lose it and hope it was balanced out in some other way.
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" In my case he know arcane, planes, history and nature: 9 masters ranks in this skills and familiar own INT (-1) = +8 skill check. Right?"
yes if the master have 9 ranks in the skill and the familiar has less it can use the master's ranks with it's own modifier (-1 for int in this case) and get the total for it's own skill use. so 9-1 =8 . correct.
i'll start off with explaining how to calculate the skill ranks it have by itself (as opposed the ones he get from his master) from the information given.
since all this will make a wall of text i will separate the answers into sections, calculating skills will be in the following section, the answers for the other questions will be on their own sections to keep things clear.
------------------------
to find out the skill ranks of the animal we need to use some reverse engineering.let's take the green sting for example.
stats: Tiny vermin, hp 4 (1d8)
- it has 1 hd, aka animal level, so if it had an int it would get 1 level worth of skill ranks, BUT-Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
- it has no int. so it can have no skills (before turning into a familiar)skills :
Skills Climb +7, Perception +4, Stealth +15; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Perception, +4 Stealth.now tiny animals can use dex instead of str for skills
so climb 7 is dex +3 and +4 racial bonus and 0 skill ranks.
perception is +4 from 0 skill rank, +0 wis and +4 race bonus.
stealth is 15 from +8 for size, 0 ranks, +3 dex and +4 racial bonus = 8+3+4 = 15,so far we can see that as a being with no int score it get no skill ranks at all, BUT when it turn into a familiar it get an int score.
"A greensting scorpion familiar loses the mindless trait and has an Intelligence score appropriate for its master’s level."
in this case depend on the master's level his int would change based on the familiar table in here. in your case 8 levels of witch
-the level of barbarian while increasing it's hp won't add to the overall 'master level' to form the outcome in the familiar progression table.in the table we can see that when the master class level =7th–8th it get:
Natural Armor Adj. = +4 (it's nat ac is 4 higher then that...
Thousands thanks and respect for you!
Now I'm understanding all what you write before. =)
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The rules about a familiar HD are a bit tricky.
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice,base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
....
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.
The second piece seems to contradict the first until you realize that it means that when you have to check if the familiar resist an effect that influences creatures with X HD or less (like Holy Word, Daze, dragon fear aura, etc.), you use the highest value between the creature HD and the master character level.
The familiar HD doesn't change, the value you check to see if some effect influences it changes.
@Noganov - you are most welcome.
what you need to understand with familiars, like Diego mentioned, is that while they 'mooch' stuff from their master (half his hp, use his HD for their abilities, use his skill ranks and base saves if higher etc) they never gain any levels themselves, beyond what they start with (again, normal familiar, there ARE exceptions), and as such never gain stuff that come from rising one's level, their base saves,bab and skil ranks stay the same (they might use their master's if higher, but it's not their original stats) they never gain more feats for every odd level or the ability point for every 4 hd etc.
Thanks for all!
I'm understand all other information, but I'm little confused about skills and feat, that's why I'm created this thread =)