For a Free Archetype game, I'd just recommend an Investigator with Alchemist Dedication but that's a bit hard to pull off if you're going Medic already and don't have Free Archetype.
I'm not sure I can comment too much on your predicament since my experience with both classes is rather slim. I will say however that the Investigator can pull off some good support-y stuff with feats like Known Weaknes, Shared Stratagem, Didactic Strike and Predictive Purchase.
That being said, looking at your party setup (No caster? At all?) I'd probably say go alchemist. Having someone handing out buffs, healing and dealing elemental damage will be quite a boon to your party's overall performance.
with the change that alchemical item bonuses are now potency bonuses
That will strongly impact the power of Mutagens and Elixirs. I don't know at what level you'll end up, but at some point, Mutagens will be crazy good (especially at level 11+).
With such a rule, I'll be tempted to play Alchemist, especially if you like a supportive position. Right at level 3, giving a +2 to hit to finesse, ranged and unarmed characters is awesome.
But the GM needs to stick to it, and the campaign has to last a bit (the very first levels are a bit tough for an Alchemist). Also, you need for other characters to be in line with your buffs (if you only have Greatsword characters, you won't be able to help them as much).
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with the change that alchemical item bonuses are now potency bonusesThat will strongly impact the power of Mutagens and Elixirs. I don't know at what level you'll end up, but at some point, Mutagens will be crazy good (especially at level 11+).
With such a rule, I'll be tempted to play Alchemist, especially if you like a supportive position. Right at level 3, giving a +2 to hit to finesse, ranged and unarmed characters is awesome.
But the GM needs to stick to it, and the campaign has to last a bit (the very first levels are a bit tough for an Alchemist). Also, you need for other characters to be in line with your buffs (if you only have Greatsword characters, you won't be able to help them as much).
No it isn't. That change to the rules puts mutagens at exactly their original power because most item bonuses have been turned into potency bonuses. If you run ABP as written mutagens become way stronger but that's almost certainly unintended.
The goal is to play a creepy non-magical doctor, think something like Herbert West or Frankenstein. No matter what I am going to take the medic archetype to get the doctor vibe,
Curios on the insistence of the Medic archetype. The archetype is reasonably powerful, but you listed character concept as the reason for taking it. I would think that Forensic Medicine would work just as well for an Investigator to get that doctor vibe. Which would make room for Alchemist archetype instead. Also, the power of Forensic Medicine is comparable to the Medic dedication. You would be able to use Battle Medicine once per hour instead of twice per day, though eventually the Medic dedication gives that benefit too. You wouldn't get the additional healing from Medic though. But it isn't very much healing anyway.
For the comparison between Alchemist and Investigator in general, Alchemist will have more flexibility, but Investigator will have more consistently available tactics because it won't matter as much if you run out of reagents. Like Blave said, it will be useful to your team to be able to have elemental damage and unconditional (no skill check needed) healing since you don't have any spellcasters. But that can be handled with Alchemist archetype too, though not quite as well. But it should be sufficient.
No it isn't. That change to the rules puts mutagens at exactly their original power because most item bonuses have been turned into potency bonuses. If you run ABP as written mutagens become way stronger but that's almost certainly unintended.with the change that alchemical item bonuses are now potency bonusesThat will strongly impact the power of Mutagens and Elixirs. I don't know at what level you'll end up, but at some point, Mutagens will be crazy good (especially at level 11+).
With such a rule, I'll be tempted to play Alchemist, especially if you like a supportive position. Right at level 3, giving a +2 to hit to finesse, ranged and unarmed characters is awesome.
But the GM needs to stick to it, and the campaign has to last a bit (the very first levels are a bit tough for an Alchemist). Also, you need for other characters to be in line with your buffs (if you only have Greatsword characters, you won't be able to help them as much).
Sorry, I don't know well APB, I didn't know they had renamed item to potency. In that case, it's quite the opposite, Mutagens lose a lot with APB (as you always have the highest bonus, which is not always true without APB).
Sorry, I don't know well APB, I didn't know they had renamed item to potency. In that case, it's quite the opposite, Mutagens lose a lot with APB (as you always have the highest bonus, which is not always true without APB).No it isn't. That change to the rules puts mutagens at exactly their original power because most item bonuses have been turned into potency bonuses. If you run ABP as written mutagens become way stronger but that's almost certainly unintended.with the change that alchemical item bonuses are now potency bonusesThat will strongly impact the power of Mutagens and Elixirs. I don't know at what level you'll end up, but at some point, Mutagens will be crazy good (especially at level 11+).
With such a rule, I'll be tempted to play Alchemist, especially if you like a supportive position. Right at level 3, giving a +2 to hit to finesse, ranged and unarmed characters is awesome.
But the GM needs to stick to it, and the campaign has to last a bit (the very first levels are a bit tough for an Alchemist). Also, you need for other characters to be in line with your buffs (if you only have Greatsword characters, you won't be able to help them as much).
Well you wind up with the highest bonus on attacks (generally only matters on back up weapons) and 3 skills, but you can still get that big swing bonus on your other skills. So unless you're regularly behind on your rune grind it shouldn't make a huge difference.
I'd ask your GM if you can get access to Alignment Ampoules and, if so, go Alchemist. Pretty much every fiend in the game has an alignment weakness of some kind, and the Ampoules can trigger any of them.
If you *do* go Alchemist, I'd sit down and talk to the GM about how Bombs will work. Bombs are a weird fit with ABP. On the one hand, you'll get the potency bonus to accuracy one level before the Bombs do, but on the other hand you get the extra weapon die one level later.
But, you know, either way can work. An Alchemical Sciences Investigator could use Cold Iron Blanch on arrows, for example, in an anti-fiend campaign. Most of them have problems with cold iron. Not quite as reliable as a bomb, but more damage on the front end when you hit. (You'll have to verify the Blanch with your GM as well; another Uncommon item.)
An Alchemical Sciences Investigator could use Cold Iron Blanch on arrows, for example,
I am not sure that you have enough actions for that. Quick Tincture is like Quick Alchemy - the item is only usable until the end of your current turn. So one action to create Cold Iron Blanch, two actions to activate it and apply it to the arrow. Unless you have Haste, you don't have the action left to Strike with the arrow. And if you do have Haste, you don't have enough actions to Devise a Strategem.
An Alchemical Sciences Investigator could use Cold Iron Blanch on arrows, for example,I am not sure that you have enough actions for that. Quick Tincture is like Quick Alchemy - the item is only usable until the end of your current turn. So one action to create Cold Iron Blanch, two actions to activate it and apply it to the arrow. Unless you have Haste, you don't have the action left to Strike with the arrow. And if you do have Haste, you don't have enough actions to Devise a Strategem.
It's more of a pre-fight buff. One vial can be applied to ten arrows, and lasts for a minute. There is table variance on this, but most folks I talk to agree that the effects last longer than one round. (For example, if you Quick Tincture a Darkvision Elixer and drink it, it will be effective for the full duration, not until the end of the round.)
It's more of a pre-fight buff. One vial can be applied to ten arrows, and lasts for a minute. There is table variance on this, but most folks I talk to agree that the effects last longer than one round. (For example, if you Quick Tincture a Darkvision Elixer and drink it, it will be effective for the full duration, not until the end of the round.)An Alchemical Sciences Investigator could use Cold Iron Blanch on arrows, for example,I am not sure that you have enough actions for that. Quick Tincture is like Quick Alchemy - the item is only usable until the end of your current turn. So one action to create Cold Iron Blanch, two actions to activate it and apply it to the arrow. Unless you have Haste, you don't have the action left to Strike with the arrow. And if you do have Haste, you don't have enough actions to Devise a Strategem.
Hmm... Yes, I suppose it depends on the ruling of when an alchemical item is 'used'. If applying the item to the weapon/ammunition counts as used and marks the end of the time limit on using it, then it can be used.
But in a surprise fight it means that you will end up spending an entire turn getting your equipment buffed. Which isn't a deal-breaker by any means, but is something to be aware of.
But in a surprise fight it means that you will end up spending an entire turn getting your equipment buffed. Which isn't a deal-breaker by any means, but is something to be aware of.
Yeah, absolutely. Truth be told, I'm not sure you could use it in a surprise fight... you'd have to access the arrows to apply it, and that could take actions in and of itself. Still, it's a nice bonus if you know you're about to start some trouble. It also gets better with higher item levels... Moderate Blanch, a L9 item, lasts 10 minutes.
I have a suspicion that if the CRB was rewritten today, Silversheen would work just like Cold Iron Blanch...
I just updated my tables for various forms of alchemy. Since four of these options have been mentioned in this thread I thought the tables might be useful.
• Alchemist Multiclass Archetype
Sorry, I don't know well APB, I didn't know they had renamed item to potency. In that case, it's quite the opposite, Mutagens lose a lot with APB (as you always have the highest bonus, which is not always true without APB).Well you wind up with the highest bonus on attacks (generally only matters on back up weapons) and 3 skills, but you can still get that big swing bonus on your other skills. So unless you're regularly behind on your rune grind it shouldn't make a huge difference.
In general, you get weapon and armor potency runes around the level of the item. There are exceptions, but the APB doesn't change the expected maths on these.
For skills, on the other hand, the APB is very generous. I've never seen more than one skill with maxed item bonus. And ending up with bonuses in 6 skills is crazy (I mean, without APB, you need to invest 6 items, with the boots, the armor and the Perception item, you basically have one item left to invest). And Mutagens are very interesting for skills. So, for me, it's a downgrade of Mutagens and items like Eagle Eye Elixir. But it's true that it's only an issue at very high level.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am going to recommend Alchemist here, but not Chirurgeon because it is pretty underwhelming. I would go Bomber or Mutagenist.
I have played an Investigator with Medic (similar theme to what you have, actually), my experience is that in the early levels you have a hard time figuring out what to do with your actions when your Devise is bad. Investigators really need things to do when their Devise is bad, and Battle Medicine doesn't fit the bill very often. If you don't want to do any magic then you are going to be having a hard time avoiding bad Devise rolls in solo encounters. Melee Investigator runs into action economy problems because if your Devise is bad on the guy you are next to, you have to move to a different one. That said, if you carry a Slide Pistol or something that can alleviate the problem because Investigators are fantastic switch hitters. Just remember that Investigators are kind of squishy for a martial.
As for Alchemist, Alchemists work great with a bunch of martials/skill monkeys. Mutagens/elixirs will help them do what they do better and get around some problems that you normally need casters for. Add in your ability to target weaknesses (which I normally discount because not that many things have weaknesses, but fiends tend to have them so it is relevant here) and let your friends target those as well by passing around bombs, you have a fantastic force multiplier character.
A nice trick is dropping a smokestick on your Rogue and feeding them a Cat's Eye Elixir. They can Hide in the smoke for SA and ignore the concealment with the Cat's Eye.
*edit: If you have a barbarian instead of a champion, then Investigator rises in my estimation for the party. They will want that healing since your party won't have other healing capability and relying on elixirs is kind of crud.
I am going to recommend Alchemist here, but not Chirurgeon because it is pretty underwhelming. I would go Bomber or Mutagenist.
I have played an Investigator with Medic (similar theme to what you have, actually), my experience is that in the early levels you have a hard time figuring out what to do with your actions when your Devise is bad. Investigators really need things to do when their Devise is bad, and Battle Medicine doesn't fit the bill very often. If you don't want to do any magic then you are going to be having a hard time avoiding bad Devise rolls in solo encounters. Melee Investigator runs into action economy problems because if your Devise is bad on the guy you are next to, you have to move to a different one. That said, if you carry a Slide Pistol or something that can alleviate the problem because Investigators are fantastic switch hitters. Just remember that Investigators are kind of squishy for a martial.
Healing via Battle Medicine is good but it has too many limitations and its just not needed all the time. If you are building an Investigator then yes take it, but you need something else as well if your stratagem die roll fails. If its Plan B then you need a Plan C as well.
I will say here what I have said elsewhere.
The question of "Should I play alchemist?" pretty much boils down to "Do I love my recipe book?".
Alchemists get a lot of their kick out of the alchemical tools list. It's got tons of random little things in it that are super-useful in very specific situations, and if you fill out your recipe book enough, you can pull *any* of them out of your back pocket at any time at the cost of a reagent. That's the kind of power that, used well, can save the party from a TPK or dramatically simplify an otherwise difficult encounter. That's real value.
Of course, to leverage that, you have to be the sort of person who thinks that getting new recipes is awesome, and who remembers every single one of them, and can realize in the moment that hey - this looks like a time for (insert very specific tool or other recipe here).
If the idea of having a recipe book that's 3/4ths of a page long or more makes you feel tired rather than excited, then alchemist is probably going to be kind of anemic for you. Alchemical investigator looks like it takes some of the same love, but it's a more limited in scope - you *can* get the tools, but you don't get the bombs or the mutagens (which at times can behave in similar ways) and you don't have as many charges per day to throw around.
If you do want to play an alchemist, especially with ABP, I'd suggest that you go bomber, which will give you a decent at-will ranged attack once you get to level 7. Goblin is a classic here, just for Burn It!, but it's not in any way mandatory. I'd also suggest talking with your GM about Dual Wield Warrior, if you find that you really like lobbing bombs at the foe. Once you hit level 9 and get Double Brew it can be pretty nice for a bomber... or it can be completely useless, depending on how your DM adjudicates some of the weird uncertainties in the rules text of that archetype.
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Alchemical investigator looks like it takes some of the same love, but it's a more limited in scope - you *can* get the tools, but you don't get the bombs or the mutagens (which at times can behave in similar ways) and you don't have as many charges per day to throw around.
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Mutagens are Elixirs, so Alchemical Sciences does allow you to make them with Quick Tinctures.
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Mutagens are Elixirs, so Alchemical Sciences does allow you to make them with Quick Tinctures.
Ah. I'd misread. I'd been thinking that the investigator had to choose tools or elixirs and then that's what they got.
Given that they get both... it looks like the alchemical investigator gets very nearly all of the "cast any spell in my recipe book right now" effect that alchemist does. You miss out on the special-case bombs, but that's a lesser issues. The bigger thing is that you lose out on the large-batch daily preparations. That can be a bigger deal. If you like the idea of starting your day by handing out a meaningful fraction of your class power budget as consumable presents to your friends and allies, then alchemist will give that to you, and investigator won't. Many people do not like this idea. Bomber alchemists also have some nifty stuff going for them, especially once they get to perpetual. If you like the idea of throwing around a bunch of bombs and having fun with splash damage and ongoing damage in a wide variety of damage types, then alchemist will give that to you, and investigator basically won't. If you don't particularly want one of those two things, then you're almost certainly better off going with investigator.
Dhampir gets better with an evil champion.
I think I still lean towards my Alchemist recommendation. You probably won't be able to keep the whole party on their feat by yourself before level 7, so convincing at least one of the rogues to drop a skill feat on Battle Medicine would be a good idea. After that you can probably handle most of the party healing through the improved Battle Medicine lock-out bypass and being able to chuck Healing Bombs.
Investigator did get better in my estimation with the last slot filled, but if the party can get to level 7 the Alchemist is my favorite. It is possible to build a support Investigator, but you have to lean into archetypes pretty hard.