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I've been looking at the 9th level spells recently and noticed 2 things about timestop and mythic timestop that make them seem a lot less appealing and want to check if I'm reading them correctly.
Timestop
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
So if I'm reading this correctly spells that have a duration LESS than timestop just evaporate doing nothing and you don't know how many rounds that will be 2 - 5. So either you only cast spells that have very long durations e.g mirror image or pray you'll not be casting the spell early and wasting it. Is that right?
Mythic time stop
Augmented (10th): If you expend three uses of mythic power, the duration increases to 1 hour per level of apparent time. You and other affected creatures gain no benefit from rest or sleep while the spell is active.
Sooo if I'm reading this right you do this and seventeen to twenty hours later you return to the fight exhausted from not getting any rest?
spell effects with lesser duration go don't go poof. they just don't affect others. you can heal yourself and such just fine.
also spell effects, not other effects, like resting. so you can rest just fine.
last things. at the level you can cast it most spells with the least duration (non instant) are going to be at least round per level = way longer then 1+1d4 rounds.
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You can’t target other players with spells while you are in a time stop, period. You can target yourself and any of those spells with durations will last the normal duration, minus the number of rounds you were in the time stop. I can think of very few buff spells you would want to use at 17th level with durations shorter than 5 rounds. There are some, you just probably don’t want to use them.
The part you bolded is just saying that while a fireball would be harmless to those outside the time stop, you could cast something like black tentacles[i]. Once the [i]time stop ended it would attempt to grab everyone in the area. And last the normal duration minus rounds you were in the stoppage.
As for the augmented mythic time stop, there is way, way more you can do in 17 hours than just rest. Especially when you are talking about high-level mythic characters. Even if fatigue is of concern to you, you have the advantage of knowing when this version will end. Use restoration sometime in the five minutes before it ends.
Note that there are some spells that you can still target on people, but don't take effect until the time stop ends. One of the best examples I can think of is Icy Prison, where you literally surround someone in ice as the effect, as opposed to targeting them specifically. There's another one I can't find at the moment that entraps them in a ball of force (not force cage) without squeezing them, but any spell that has you select someone to affect without directly affecting them like a true targeted spell like destruction/disintegrate does can still work while in time stop.
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Note that there are some spells that you can still target on people, but don't take effect until the time stop ends. One of the best examples I can think of is Icy Prison, where you literally surround someone in ice as the effect, as opposed to targeting them specifically. There's another one I can't find at the moment that entraps them in a ball of force (not force cage) without squeezing them, but any spell that has you select someone to affect without directly affecting them like a true targeted spell like destruction/disintegrate does can still work while in time stop.
Icy prison would not work. You can’t affect anyone with targeted spells, period.
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.
Target one creature.
Resilient sphere (which I believe is the other spell you are thinking of) would work because it targets the area around a creature, not the creature.
When you read the description of icy prison, you get the same end result. The cold damage of course still doesn't proc until the time stop ends, but you can still create a barrier of ice all around someone.
AwesonessDog, how do you reconcile this line from Time Stop: "you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell." with the claim that you can target someone with Icy Prison?
ice prison might not work. but a witch with the ice tomb hex (and say the deception patron for time stop spell) or any of the other nasty hexs probably can drop them on the targets while time is stopped (the su hexs not sp). as they are not spells nor attacks.
and of course there is the old delayed fireball and such..
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ice prison might not work. but a witch with the ice tomb hex (and say the deception patron for time stop spell) or any of the other nasty hexs probably can drop them on the targets while time is stopped (the su hexs not sp). as they are not spells nor attacks.
That’s a pretty high degree of linguistic sophistry trying to claim that it’s not an attack unless it requires an attack roll. Most of the time the rules mean what they say.
and of course there is the old delayed fireball and such..
Yeah, Paizo actually published a high-level wizard mercenary somewhere (Rivals Guide, maybe?) whose tactics included time stop, black tentacles, and several delayed blast fireballs, if I’m remembering correctly.
[hexes] are not spells nor attacks.
For spell descriptions, they are: "Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone." CRB pg. 208
Don't ask me why it says "attack or spell" when spells already count as attacks.
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[hexes] are not spells nor attacks.For spell descriptions, they are: "Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone." CRB pg. 208
Don't ask me why it says "attack or spell" when spells already count as attacks.
Do you mean Time stop?
other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells;
It says that because it says other creatures, not opponents. While under the effect of Time stop you can't Heal your friends, buff them, Teleport or Dimension Door them away, or use any other spell that targets them.
RAW you can use SU powers that target other characters if they don't fall under the "attack" definition. I think that RAI is clearly against people doing that, but if a table plays under strict RAW it is feasible.
I've been looking at the 9th level spells recently and noticed 2 things about timestop and mythic timestop that make them seem a lot less appealing and want to check if I'm reading them correctly.
Timestop
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.So if I'm reading this correctly spells that have a duration LESS than timestop just evaporate doing nothing and you don't know how many rounds that will be 2 - 5. So either you only cast spells that have very long durations e.g mirror image or pray you'll not be casting the spell early and wasting it. Is that right?
Mythic time stop
Augmented (10th): If you expend three uses of mythic power, the duration increases to 1 hour per level of apparent time. You and other affected creatures gain no benefit from rest or sleep while the spell is active.Sooo if I'm reading this right you do this and seventeen to twenty hours later you return to the fight exhausted from not getting any rest?
A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. - when they say this, they're talking about a caster who is under the influence of Time Stop and drops an Entangle, Creeping Ice, Wall Spell, etc., these Area Effects will "begin" once the Time Stop ends. <---- this gets a little hairy with Mythic Time Stop though. Normally, with a Time Stop that lasts 2-5 rounds, you can just cast any of these effects and they'll take effect once the Time Stop ends, but, with Mythic Time Stop that lasts 17-20 hours, if you want any of these 10min/level Area Spells to start when your Mythic Time Stop ends, they have to be cast in the last hour or so of the Mythic Time Stop, and likewise any 1min/level Area Spells that you want active when Mythic Time Stop ends must be cast in the last ~15mins, so that their durations exceed the remaining duration of the Mythic Time Stop.
Remember that this clause "A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends" is only for Area Spells, and its because you're not allowed to cast targeted spells on enemies while Time Stop is active, but you can set up Pit and Wall Spells, as well as other Area Spells that don't directly attack an enemy. And all of these Area Spells would take effect as soon as your Time Stop ends, so if you use your Time Stop wisely, you can reappear after your Time Stop has ended and will have surrounded your enemies with a veritable labyrinth of Wall, Pit, Entangle, Black Tentacles, Summoned Monsters, and Reverse Gravity effects.
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Also, if you want to Mythic Time Stop for 17-20 hours and not be fatigued/exhausted when it ends, you could use Keep Watch during that time.
Keep Watch
School enchantment; Level inquisitor 1, magus 1, paladin 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target one creature touched/2 levels
Duration 8 hours or less; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
This spell enables the subjects to stand watch or keep vigil throughout the night without any ill effects.
The subjects suffer no fatigue and gain all the usual benefits of a full night’s rest.
The subjects gain hit points as though from resting, wizards may prepare their spells as though they had slept for 8 hours, and so on. Effects that rely on actual sleep or dreaming are ineffective, though the subjects are still susceptible to effects that would put them to sleep, such as sleep or deep slumber. Any vigorous activity, including fighting, immediately ends the effect, and the affected creatures must either have the spell cast on them again or sleep for the remaining hours to avoid fatigue and gain the benefits of a full night’s rest.
Yes Diego, we know, you cannot target Allies with spells because Normal Time Stop only affects the caster (Range: Personal), so thanks for contributing, but when I said ENEMIES, I was talking about casting AREA SPELLS on ENEMIES, wasn't I? Yes, I was, that's right. And I wasn't talking about targeting your allies with spells with Normal Time Stop, was I? Nope, I wasn't, that's right again. And the only time that I was talking about casting Keep Watch on allies was with MYTHIC Time Stop, wasn't I? Yep, that's right for a 3rd time in a row buckaroo, I was.
And Mythic Time Stop allows you to include a number of creatures equal to 1/2 of your Mythic Tier within close range, so if you're Mythic Tier 8, then that's 4 allies plus yourself = 5 total affected allies. And you ARE allowed to cast spells on them, because each of these affected creatures can interact with one another normally, and it even says so in the spell. So you could cast Keep Watch on all of them, and they wouldn't be fatigued. You up to speed now?
AwesonessDog, how do you reconcile this line from Time Stop: "you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell." with the claim that you can target someone with Icy Prison?
You select a person to be encased in ice, targeting is just the selection, but you form ice around them, thus you aren't really targeting them like you would with a ray spell that directly impacts them and affects them. If you can encase someone in ice when time isn't stopped, you should easily be able to do so while time is stopped.
AwesonessDog, how do you reconcile this line from Time Stop: "you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell." with the claim that you can target someone with Icy Prison?You select a person to be encased in ice, targeting is just the selection, but you form ice around them, thus you aren't really targeting them like you would with a ray spell that directly impacts them and affects them. If you can encase someone in ice when time isn't stopped, you should easily be able to do so while time is stopped.
I would respectfully disagree here, and I know what you're getting at because the ice forms around them as opposed to a specific attack that targets their person, but the Icy Prison spell specifically states Target: One Creature, and the rules for Time Stop prevent you from targeting creatures.
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There's clearly some misunderstanding of other people's posts going on, and some ideas that are clearly wrong. But let's please keep this civil and not verge into personal attacks.
Keep watch wouldn't help without a generous reading.
You and other affected creatures gain no benefit from rest or sleep while the spell is active.
This spell enables the subjects to stand watch or keep vigil throughout the night without any ill effects. The subjects suffer no fatigue and gain all the usual benefits of a full night’s rest.
Keep watch gives "all the benefits of a full night's rest." Augmented mythic time stop says you "gain no benefit from rest." Yes, these two seem to be in opposition to each other, but it really depends on how you are trying to parse keep watch.
The most straightforward reading of keep watch is that it does exactly what the name says. You can keep watch during the time you would normally be sleeping/resting and gain the benefits of having rested (which includes not being fatigued/exhausted from lack of sleep). Or, to put it another way, "just pretend you rested for this time period." Great, but in that time stop you don't gain any benefits from having rested.
There's clearly some misunderstanding of other people's posts going on, and some ideas that are clearly wrong. But let's please keep this civil and not verge into personal attacks.
Keep watch wouldn't help without a generous reading.
You and other affected creatures gain no benefit from rest or sleep while the spell is active.This spell enables the subjects to stand watch or keep vigil throughout the night without any ill effects. The subjects suffer no fatigue and gain all the usual benefits of a full night’s rest.Keep watch gives "all the benefits of a full night's rest." Augmented mythic time stop says you "gain no benefit from rest." Yes, these two seem to be in opposition to each other, but it really depends on how you are trying to parse keep watch.
The most straightforward reading of keep watch is that it does exactly what the name says. You can keep watch during the time you would normally be sleeping/resting and gain the benefits of having rested (which includes not being fatigued/exhausted from lack of sleep). Or, to put it another way, "just pretend you rested for this time period." Great, but in that time stop you don't gain any benefits from having rested.
Yeah, with Keep Watch, you're staying awake and vigilant but you don't get fatigued from it, you're not actually resting so I'd say it doesn't violate the "you gain no benefit from rest" clause in Mythic Time Stop.
The "you gain no benefit from rest" clause is surely meant to prevent natural healing, spell recovery, and class abilities with 1/day & 3/day uses from refreshing during a 17-20 hour Time Stop, because then every time the group is losing, /cast Augmented Mythic Time Stop, and restart combat with full spells and full daily uses on abilities. Allowing this would break your game.
Yes, it's possible to pull out the "suffers no fatigue" part individually, but it reads as a clarification rather than an additional effect.
If it's a clarification it can only be a clarification of the first sentence - the one that doesn't talk about rest, but rather about staying awake "without any ill effects".
I 100% agree with Ryze Kuja - the stuff is to prevent regaining spell slots, not to force exhaustion upon the user. Which, as you say, isn't a big enough deal for a 9th level mythic spell to care about in the first place.
It says that because it says other creatures, not opponents. (...) RAW you can use SU powers that target other characters if they don't fall under the "attack" definition. I think that RAI is clearly against people doing that, but if a table plays under strict RAW it is feasible.
I'm not sure that's the reason it says that, but still a good point in that it definitely makes the mention of spells non-redundant. I agree with both of your last statements.
Note that Keep Watch is a mostly useless spell anyway, as you can already rest without sleeping, as long as you get at least some sleep in there somewhere. Basically it just lets one person do it all as opposed to trading shifts, but timestop prevents resting straight up.