Fire Immunity, Lava Immersion and worn equipment; what happens?

[DanielKT]

I've been looking through the books and I can't seem to find a rule about what happens to worn equipment if a character is immersed in lava.

The character is immune to fire so they don't take damage, but is everything they are wearing subject to the 20d6?

[Senko]

DanielKT wrote:

I've been looking through the books and I can't seem to find a rule about what happens to worn equipment if a character is immersed in lava.

The character is immune to fire so they don't take damage, but is everything they are wearing subject to the 20d6?

I believe its a gray area but it probably is just fine. The relevant sections I can see are the beastiary entries on immunity . . .

Immunity (Ex or Su)
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on level, save type, or school), and other effects. A creature does not suffer any secondary effects that would normally be triggered by an effect it is immune to.

Format: Immune acid, fire, paralysis
Location: Defensive Abilities.

and the part about saving throws for items . . .

Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).

So basically you can extend that to apply to other abilties so if an item is worn by a character it benefits from that characters abilities e.g. immune to fire applies to you and your shirt. Logically it shouldn't be unless enchanted so while you can swim in lava fine your clothing can't and burns off however that's more detail than most would enjoy.

[Diego Rossi]

Generally, the damage to items is waived away for simplicity's sake.

If you want to be more nuanced:
- spells and magic items giving elemental resistance extend the effect to the equipment carried;
- EX natural abilities cover only the creature, not its equipment;
- supernatural abilities should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Specific examples can have specific rules.

Hardness always applies, and some items can be immune from some kind of damage or have a higher resistance. As an example, a rope is highly resistant against blunt and piercing damage, against cold, and probably it is totally immune to negative energy damage. On the other side of the spectrum, paper can be damaged by water.

[Senko]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Generally, the damage to items is waived away for simplicity's sake.

If you want to be more nuanced:
- spells and magic items giving elemental resistance extend the effect to the equipment carried;
- EX natural abilities cover only the creature, not its equipment;
- supernatural abilities should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Specific examples can have specific rules.

Hardness always applies, and some items can be immune from some kind of damage or have a higher resistance. As an example, a rope is highly resistant against blunt and piercing damage, against cold, and probably it is totally immune to negative energy damage. On the other side of the spectrum, paper can be damaged by water.

I imagine that depends on how you view negative energy. My opinion's always been shaped by the old demi-plane model where you have planes linking the inner planes e.g. between water and earth you have mud, between water and fire you have steam. In that one negative energy was always protrayed as pure entropy destroying what it comes in contact with. So I always run it as destroying anything not empowered by it e.g. corroding metal, causing wood to rot, putting out fires etc. I'm fairly sure that's not pathfinder compliant though.

[Hugo Rune]

The right answer depends on your view of precedence: RAW, RAI, fun, versimiltude, common sense. Pick which takes priority and go from there.

[zza ni]

do notice that being 'immune to fire' doesn't also automatically include 'can breath in lava' so even if your gear is somehow protected jumping into that pool might be ill advised.

[Pizza Lord]

Natural immunities do not generally apply to equipment. Spells that grant protection typically state that they do. In most cases, casting a spell that gives you energy immunity will apply to whatever you're wearing, but just turning yourself into a Fire subtype creature will not.

So, if your PC turns themselves into a fire giant (including subtype), their gear may change size, but if they wade into a river of lava, then it will take damage and likely melt even though they will be safe (unless they turned into a form that couldn't use the items and the items were melded into their form).

Sometimes it falls to common sense and the situation:

In the case of monsters and NPCs, like fire salamanders or somesuch, it might be assumed that their gear is naturally fire-resistant or proofed, but a creature just turning into one doesn't have their gear suddenly protected.

Similarly, even magical items that provide energy protection, such a ring of fire resistance don't say they apply to themselves, only giving their protection to a wearer (which would then extend to themselves). But there's not reason not to assume that an unworn or unattended ring of fire protection shouldn't be more resistance to fire on its own or a ring of greater acid resistance shouldn't be nearly impervious to dropping into acid or a gelatinous cube engulfing it.

It's like how acid never specifies that it doesn't work on glass and glass doesn't say it's impervious to acid, but a GM could rule that glass is unaffected by any particular acid. After all, we carry acid flasks which are typically glass. Yes, there's numerous different kinds of 'acidic' based substances that qualify as acid and some do etch glass, but there's almost no indication in Pathfinder about acids and their specific types (ie. stonebreaker acid which might deal more damage to stone than typical acid), or whether acid splash is a type of acid reaction different from the damage of an acid flask. As such, should it do any damage to a glass window? It's a GMs call on what makes the most sense to them (either because they're trying to keep realism/believability, consistency, or fun in their game).

[AwesomenessDog]

zza ni wrote:

do notice that being 'immune to fire' doesn't also automatically include 'can breath in lava' so even if your gear is somehow protected jumping into that pool might be ill advised.

For some reason, the game assumes Lava has the viscosity of water, and you can swim in it instead of it being more like a very hot quicksand that you would have to struggle to move in. So unless your GM changes that, if you're immune to fire, you probably can surface and catch your breath.

[AwesomenessDog]

Pizza Lord wrote:

or a ring of greater acid resistance shouldn't be nearly impervious to dropping into acid or a gelatinous cube engulfing it.

Actually, a Gelatinous Cube specifically doesn't breakdown metal and other non organic matter, so unless you made a flesh ring, or are some sissy elf carving wooden rings, your ring will be fine.

[DanielKT]

Well the origin of the question was both what happens to a PC

It was also related to what happens to a magma dragon's worn items within it's native habitat.

[Claxon]

zza ni wrote:

do notice that being 'immune to fire' doesn't also automatically include 'can breath in lava' so even if your gear is somehow protected jumping into that pool might be ill advised.

I mean, falling "into" lava is also just an incorrect understanding since in reality the lava is much more dense than you. It's more like sitting on top of a really hot rock that's going to burn you into nothingness. You might sink down a inch or so, but nothing where you'd have to be concerned about breathing.

Course people don't like that level of realism and often prefer that lava is more like boiling water.

Edit: If I'd read further on I would have noticed you address this too, although you seem to think quicksand an apt comparison but I don't think so. Between the viscosity and density you're really not going to sink.

But it's important to note that between the viscosity and density you're unlikely to have an real appreciable penetration into the lava. Assuming you don't just instantly die from the heat, you should probably take falling damage and then be able to walk on it like a mostly normally surface...that's at a temperature of like 1200°C.

Edit: I confused your post with a post followed up by Awesomeness Dog, I don't know why. Anyways I'm letting it stand. Hope everyone can make sense of what I've said.

[Diego Rossi]

I am not sure you can walk on lava as "a mostly normally surface". While it will support you, it will be like walking on one of those inflatable structures for children. It will bend under your feet by some inches (you will displace as much lava as you wight). Depending on the temperature and original rock it could vary from very viscous to fluid, so could be a very bad surface for walking even if you are immune to the heat.
Generally, I would treat it as difficult terrain.

[DanielKT]

Okay; so what was the consensus about items?

Example situation:

Magma dragon with the earthglide spell/ability enjoys swimming in lava. It has some items it wears. Dragon equivalent of rings and pendent.

Magma dragon is immune to fire.

Are the items immune by extension of that immunity?

If not, how do you make them immune? I know there used to be a 3.5e item property you could add, but I'm not aware of that being part of pathfinder.

[Diego Rossi]

Raw doesn't say that they are immune, so they aren't.

[Diego Rossi]

Just to point it out, lava fluidity can vary from practically liquid to very viscous. In the first kind a creature dense enough can probably swin, while a creature with low density or large feet can probably walk on the lava (if it can resist the damage).

The lava river in video flows at 10 meters/second. Impressive.

[Claxon]

It's true that there are many kinds of lava, but the more common types are very dense and viscous. I agree that it'd be difficult terrain, assuming you can survive the heat, but it could be walked on.

Not to say you can't have water-like lava, it's just not as common on Earth.

[AwesomenessDog]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Just to point it out, lava fluidity can vary from practically liquid to very viscous. In the first kind a creature dense enough can probably swin, while a creature with low density or large feet can probably walk on the lava (if it can resist the damage).

The lava river in video flows at 10 meters/second. Impressive.

Me watching for 2 hours for them to toss the goblin in to see if it will sink or float on the bubbling surface...