You are aware that ability is also used to refer to things like Strength and Constitution. Yes they often expand that to ability score but not always. So that variant use of the word "ability" is already used in a not strictly active way within the game.
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You are aware that ability is also used to refer to things like Strength and Constitution. Yes they often expand that to ability score but not always. So that variant use of the word "ability" is already used in a not strictly active way within the game.
Yes, and the game uses "level" for too many things also.
However, in this case I don't see any possible way to confuse that meaning of "ability" with the one being used here.
You are aware that ability is also used to refer to things like Strength and Constitution. Yes they often expand that to ability score but not always. So that variant use of the word "ability" is already used in a not strictly active way within the game.
To make the discussion clearer could you please share the relevant quotes where the term ability is used to discuss rune effects or passive magical items?
My searching the pdf hasn't turned up with anything that supports this view.It is for sure unclear, but when determining intent (which is all we can attempt to do) it is more helpful to collect what is written.
A lot of items mention using/activating abiliies, but they are always for some variant of an action. Which is in line with what the GMG supports with the reading of ability.
You are aware that ability is also used to refer to things like Strength and Constitution. Yes they often expand that to ability score but not always. So that variant use of the word "ability" is already used in a not strictly active way within the game.
To make the discussion clearer could you please share the relevant quotes where the term ability is used to discuss rune effects or passive magical items?
My searching the pdf hasn't turned up with anything that supports this view.It is for sure unclear, but when determining intent (which is all we can attempt to do) it is more helpful to collect what is written.
A lot of items mention using/activating abiliies, but they are always for some variant of an action. Which is in line with what the GMG supports with the reading of ability.
Search the PDF for the phrase "the ability to"
At certain levels, most characters gain the ability to deal extra damage from the weapon specialization class feature.
The armor gives you the ability to breathe water
When all the spines are gone, you lose the ability to attack with them until the spines regenerate the next day
you gain the ability to understand, speak, and write that language
Then there is the glossary
ability This is a general term referring to rules that provide an exception to the basic rules. An ability could come from a number of sources, so “an ability that gives you a bonus to damage rolls” could be a feat, a spell, and so on.
Ability is used in many ways and can mean almost anything. Why the refernce to CMG in particular. These are just from CRB 2nd printing.
None of that seems really compelling for the argument that golems are designed to be immune to strikes from magic weaposn though.
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Search the PDF for the phrase "the ability to"
At certain levels, most characters gain the ability to deal extra damage from the weapon specialization class feature.
The armor gives you the ability to breathe water
When all the spines are gone, you lose the ability to attack with them until the spines regenerate the next day
you gain the ability to understand, speak, and write that language
Then there is the glossary
ability This is a general term referring to rules that provide an exception to the basic rules. An ability could come from a number of sources, so “an ability that gives you a bonus to damage rolls” could be a feat, a spell, and so on.
Ability is used in many ways and can mean almost anything. Why the refernce to CMG in particular. These are just from CRB 2nd printing.
Yeah? But how does this reinforce your reading of magical abilities anything magical is a magical ability.
The reason I point to the GMG is because it supports a definition of ability that makes sense with delineating between spells and magical abilities. It also makes sense when pointing to magical items that grant magical abilities.
I am asking for a hint, any form of text. That suggests that
1. Runes and all rune effects passive or not are intended to be counted as magical abilties
2. And also still necesstitates for different language than all magic effects being counted, like the other entries from golem antimagic. (Including spells, as by your reading they are also magical abilities, cuz magical).
I know abilities aren't well defined, hence trying to ascertain intent as paizo isn't likely to come to the mat with errata any time soon.
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Search the PDF for the phrase "the ability to"
At certain levels, most characters gain the ability to deal extra damage from the weapon specialization class feature.
The armor gives you the ability to breathe water
When all the spines are gone, you lose the ability to attack with them until the spines regenerate the next day
you gain the ability to understand, speak, and write that language
Then there is the glossary
ability This is a general term referring to rules that provide an exception to the basic rules. An ability could come from a number of sources, so “an ability that gives you a bonus to damage rolls” could be a feat, a spell, and so on.
Ability is used in many ways and can mean almost anything. Why the refernce to CMG in particular. These are just from CRB 2nd printing.
Yeah? But how does this reinforce your reading of magical abilities anything magical is a magical ability.
The reason I point to the GMG is because it supports a definition of ability that makes sense with delineating between spells and magical abilities. It also makes sense when pointing to magical items that grant magical abilities.
I am asking for a hint, any form of text. That suggests that
1. Runes and all rune effects passive or not are intended to be counted as magical abilties
2. And also still necesstitates for different language than all magic effects being counted, like the other entries from golem antimagic. (Including spells, as by your reading they are also magical abilities, cuz magical).I know abilities aren't well defined, hence trying to ascertain intent as paizo isn't likely to come to the mat with errata any time soon.
Yes abilities are vague and not limited that is the point we agree on. Your choice to not count runed weapon attacks as magical is a pragmatic choice. But it is an arbitrary choice and is not explicit in the rules.
The abilities I quoted where passive magic items that had abilities. You asked for "or". Breathing underwater is clearly a passive magical ability of an item.
Runes themselves are all listed as magical.
Magus arcance cascade Strikes are called out as being magical. So there is certainily nothing technical stopping Strikes from having a Magical trait.
Anyway at this point I'm going to concede the field. Not because of what you said. But because of what I said earlier. This rules statement, which still is in the rule book.
Ghosts and other incorporeal creatures have a high resistance to physical attacks that aren't magical (attacks that lack the magical trait). Furthermore, most incorporeal creatures have additional, though lower, resistance to magical physical damage (such as damage dealt from a mace with the magic trait) and most other damage types.
Clearly an attack being magical and the damage being magical are two different things. This creates the rules space for your point to exist.
My apologies for being a litte slow on this. I still see this as a bit arbitrary, that an item is magical but the strike with it isn't. They really should be explicit about fine points like that.
I am sure this is going to have implications for resistances and spells everywhere. Because now this means that Telekinetic Projectile is a magical attack but not magical damage. So clauses like double resistance against non-magical are going to apply to it.
Not looking forward to having that conversation with my players.
Anyway, thinking about the implications of this (and taking the errata as listed here at face value for the moment):
A weapon Strike would not gain the magical traits even if it has a rune on it. Which is good when fighting a golem. Not so good when fighting a ghost.
Also some spells like Spiritual Weapon, Malicious Shadow, and Weapon of Judgement would be able to affect a golem because the Strike actions that they make likely also wouldn't be gaining the magical traits from the spell that is causing them.
Isn't debugging fun?!
OK so The subordinate action doesn’t gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified so maybe this could be true.
But all 3 of these examples generate melee spell attacks. For me the presense of the word spell means that these are still spells and magical - even though the damage is not magical. So Golem Antimagic is still going to apply and potentially negate these.However there are spells that fall into this category. Example some focus spells Thunderous Strike It asks you to make a melee Strike. Also Ki Strike, Weapon Surge. You would be able to affect a Golem with these.
Summons and similar conjurations get around golem magic resistance as well.
Buffs like Haste and True Strike are obviously all OK, they don't make the attack magical.
For Battle Forms there is a general polymorph rule Any Strikes specifically granted by a polymorph effect are magical. But they aren't picking up any other traits from the spell. So a wild shape Druid will need to prepare a summon to deal with a golem.
Monks are stuffed from level 3 with Mystic Stikes making unarmed attacks become magical
Magus can at least choose to not use Arcane Cascade or Spell Strike, ouch.
Question: If I fireball a Ghost Mage
Immunities death effects, disease, paralyzed, poison, precision, unconscious; Resistances all damage 10 (except force, ghost touch, or positive; double resistance vs. non-magical)
How much resistance does it have? I know the fireball is magical. But is the fire damage that it causes magical or is it just fire damage? More importantly how do I know from the rules?
Is it just because it was created by a magical effect therefore it is magical?
Is the damage from the strike of Ki Strike magical?
The problem is resistances are noted for things like cold iron, adamantine, wood, silver, non-magical.
None of these are damage types, and only magical is a trait.